WEBVTT

NOTE Open Interest — damian-chen-starknet-foundation. Draft: text from the editor-approved caption file (S21 approved-corrections.srt, 22 Oct) re-timed to the approved edit by word alignment against ASR of the cut; caption lines from sections removed in the edit dropped (15 cues). Automatic speaker labels removed during publication QA; interjections cannot be attributed reliably. 13:14–13:44 (closing answer + sign-off) is NOT in the approved caption file and is ASR text only — needs a human read.

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Welcome back to the

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content suite in Singapore.

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Today we have Damian

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from Starknet Foundation,

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leading growth, super

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excited to talk to Damian.

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Before we get into all the things privacy

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that Starknet is working on,

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can we hear a little bit more

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about how you got into crypto

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and your journey here?

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Yeah, sure.

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So I'm Damian, the VP of Growth at the

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Starknet Foundation.

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I joined crypto

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probably in like 2020, 2021.

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I was previously a practicing M&A lawyer,

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but during COVID times I

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was getting a bit bored

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and I went into our firm's blockchain

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regulatory practice.

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And there I met quite

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a few crypto founders,

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which was actually SBF.

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So we were advising

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them when they were moving

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their operations from

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Hong Kong into the Bahamas,

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and our firm was advising us

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where from the Asia Pacific region.

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And then from there, I

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just went super deep.

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They obviously had a lot of

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interest in Solana at the time.

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They were building a

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lot of projects on Solana.

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I don't know if you guys

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remember like Maps and like--

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Serum, yep.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So I got into the Solana ecosystem,

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I joined a startup there,

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I worked there for two and a half years.

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Just went super deep DeFi after that

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and from there I moved into Starknet.

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Amazing.

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And I mean, from the legal background

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all the way to Starknet,

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what got you

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interested in joining Starknet

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and what excites you

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about Starknet today?

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Well, legal was

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actually not a great fit for me

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because my personality was super like,

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and just like doing stuff.

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Legal is very much about

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like what you should do.

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Starknet was very exciting when I joined.

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When I joined the

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foundation didn't exist yet

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and it was just the lab side

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and Eli who's a

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founder of Starknet, StarkWare,

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the lab's team was looking

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to build out the foundation.

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And so when I first joined,

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it was practically

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just all systems ablaze

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and we were doing

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everything from zero to one.

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The culture is still

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very much like that today.

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We're experimenting a lot with like

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leading edge technology,

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we're pushing a lot of very exciting

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new updates to the market.

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And it's just good to be at the forefront

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of actual technical excellence

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that defines our industry

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and being able to

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continue to see what we do.

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Yeah, I mean, like you mentioned,

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there's so many parts of the,

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I would say privacy infrastructure.

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You mentioned StarkWare, Starknet.

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It can be a little bit

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confusing for the average viewer.

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So maybe it would be

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great if you could break down

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specifically what is

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Starknet working on today

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and where do you see the

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products we're growing as well?

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Gotcha, gotcha.

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Yeah, well, just to really step it back.

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StarkWare is the lab

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entity behind Starknet,

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the public network.

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Before Starknet, they ran a privatized

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blockchain instance called StarkEx.

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And that was what powered dYdX and

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Immutable and Sorare

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and a lot of those big applications.

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Just as a bit of history,

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StarkWare were the first

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or the second, I think,

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grant recipients from the Ethereum

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Foundation at the time.

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So in 2018, they were given a grant

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to use their cryptographic

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proof STARKs to scale Ethereum.

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And so they did that as a

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SaaS solution practically

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for teams like dYdX.

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And then they were actually able to

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achieve immense scale.

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This was before

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optimistic rollups were even

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conceived of as a word.

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And then the landscape

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became optimistic rollups.

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Then obviously validity

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rollups, what we are, ZK rollups.

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And so across time, things have changed

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and the industry has changed a lot.

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Starknet specifically came

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around after optimistic rollups.

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The business model

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really for a SaaS solution

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privatized blockchain instance

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doesn't really work anymore

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when Arbitrum and Optimism

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and all these guys

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offering scale came out

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that at a much lower cost.

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And so Starknet was

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created as a public blockchain.

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Nice.

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And today Starknet is

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competing in a very big variety

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of L2s or different networks.

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What do you think might be attractive

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for either a builder or a user for them

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to play on Starknet?

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Yeah, I mean, I think we hear a lot about

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the best tech always wins

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in a long enough horizon

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or you're on the other

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side and you're saying

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the best tech never wins in

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a super best distribution.

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I do think that over a

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long enough time horizon,

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the better tech should

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win most of the time.

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And Starknet

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historically has always defined

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the industry standard for

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what blockchain technology

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should look like.

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We were the first to conceive of the

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Stark proving system

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to actually put it in production

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to use hash based cryptography.

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Now you have Ethereum,

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the L1 looking at scaling,

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the L1 using the exact same work.

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A lot of the privacy standard

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and the work we've done there

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as well is quite ubiquitous.

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I do think that so long

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as you sit at the forefront

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of the industry you're at

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and you're continuously pushing

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cutting edge technology forward,

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then you will eventually win.

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It will take time and it'll be hard,

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but it'll eventually come.

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Nice.

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Something that I wanna

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learn more personally

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between STARKs, like you've mentioned,

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it's been able to help

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companies like dYdX scale

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to the SaaS level solution,

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process a lot of transactions,

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and then there's the

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whole privacy angle of it.

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I understand that you kind of kick

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both best of both worlds,

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but what do you think is

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really the value prop there

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for implementing something

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like a STARK or Starknet?

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Yeah, well, proving

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systems at the end of the day

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are essentially as compression systems.

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They take a very large body of data

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and they reduce it to a very small proof,

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and then you're able to verify that proof

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to verify the validity

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of that entire initial body of data.

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Privacy is kind of

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just a byproduct of that

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because when you

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reduce something to a proof

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and you verify it,

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you don't necessarily need

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to know what you're verifying

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because verify whether or not it's valid.

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Starknet for the longest

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time had inbuilt privacy,

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but we didn't actually

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have privacy on the network.

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So we posted the data to the L1

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that showed the full body of transactions

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because at the time the industry wasn't

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very privacy forward,

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and so we were actually

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paying extra settlement costs

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on the L1 just to show

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all that data anyway,

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and also there was a lot

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of compliance, et cetera,

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things that needed the

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privacy to be done right.

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It's different now.

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We've come out with a STRK20 standard,

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which does privatize transactions,

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but it's opt-in and it has a whole

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regulatory framework around it

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that allows people to produce that data

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should they request to do so,

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but I guess just to go

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back to your question,

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Zero Knowledge proofs itself are privacy

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preserving inherently,

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but we've used it in a way

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that wasn't privacy preserving

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and now we're moving

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towards a compliant privacy model.

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Nice, and we've talked on this podcast

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and the hot subject is definitely Zcash.

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We've had also smart

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contract layers like Aleo

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who want to build the

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equivalent of private Ethereum.

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Do you think there's use cases there

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in terms of having more smart contract

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like transactions being private

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and what are some of

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the use cases you see

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that fit really the

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technology you guys are working on?

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Yeah, so I think Zcash is great, right?

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And I think Zcash

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taking off is very intuitive

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of the industry's

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move towards new privacy.

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And I think privacy was something

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that Satoshi contemplated for Bitcoin,

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even during the early

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days Bitcoin forums,

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but never actually got

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into the end state of Bitcoin.

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And so I think Zcash having that PMF

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is very much addictive

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that people want this

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for their store of value.

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But at the end of the day,

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Zcash is just a store of value.

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It's a private Bitcoin.

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It's not a

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programmable smart contract layer.

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You can't have decentralized finance

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and smart contracts exist

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on top of it without an L2.

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And so I think there is room for

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a programmable private Zcash.

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And so that is kind of the

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framing that we're going for.

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We have scale, we have compute,

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we have a base chain that works

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that people can build on top of

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that they can opt into our privacy

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00:07:45.470 --> 00:07:46.590
that has liquidity that can

288
00:07:46.590 --> 00:07:47.830
come in from other networks too.

289
00:07:47.830 --> 00:07:48.790
And so in that essence,

290
00:07:49.150 --> 00:07:50.030
I think we're kind of

291
00:07:50.030 --> 00:07:51.010
different from the Zcash.

292
00:07:51.010 --> 00:07:54.570
But yeah, I definitely think the industry

293
00:07:54.570 --> 00:07:56.410
is very much moving towards that area.

294
00:07:57.290 --> 00:07:58.530
There's parts of my investor brain

295
00:07:58.530 --> 00:07:59.670
where people talk about

296
00:07:59.670 --> 00:08:01.430
Zcash as private Bitcoin.

297
00:08:01.430 --> 00:08:03.210
But at that point, maybe

298
00:08:03.210 --> 00:08:04.350
on a smart contract layer

299
00:08:04.350 --> 00:08:05.150
that's private, you could

300
00:08:05.150 --> 00:08:06.410
also just bring in Bitcoin.

301
00:08:06.410 --> 00:08:08.750
And now that would make Bitcoin private.

302
00:08:08.750 --> 00:08:11.570
But there's other concerns regarding

303
00:08:11.570 --> 00:08:13.570
Bitcoin's long-term security,

304
00:08:13.570 --> 00:08:14.650
whether that's quantum

305
00:08:14.650 --> 00:08:15.870
resistance and things like that.

306
00:08:16.250 --> 00:08:17.350
I want to get your take on

307
00:08:17.350 --> 00:08:19.090
where's the current state of quantum

308
00:08:19.090 --> 00:08:20.750
and what are some solutions

309
00:08:20.750 --> 00:08:22.050
that you guys might be working on.

310
00:08:22.590 --> 00:08:23.090
Excellent, yeah.

311
00:08:23.090 --> 00:08:25.270
So this is partly why I also say

312
00:08:25.270 --> 00:08:26.650
that Starknet is always at the edge

313
00:08:26.650 --> 00:08:28.090
of leading edge technology.

314
00:08:28.990 --> 00:08:32.290
It's because we, from the very early days

315
00:08:32.290 --> 00:08:33.590
of designing STARKs, using

316
00:08:33.850 --> 00:08:34.610
STARKs to build Starknet,

317
00:08:34.610 --> 00:08:35.810
we designed it to be in

318
00:08:35.810 --> 00:08:36.630
a future-proof manner.

319
00:08:36.630 --> 00:08:37.510
And so the network

320
00:08:38.370 --> 00:08:39.010
well, STARKs by themselves

321
00:08:39.010 --> 00:08:40.870
as a primitive are post-quantum secure.

322
00:08:41.470 --> 00:08:42.190
The network at the

323
00:08:42.190 --> 00:08:43.770
moment is in the process

324
00:08:43.770 --> 00:08:44.970
of being upgraded to be

325
00:08:45.430 --> 00:08:46.130
post-quantum secure as well.

326
00:08:46.830 --> 00:08:47.410
And we've also just come

327
00:08:47.410 --> 00:08:48.710
out with a proof of concept

328
00:08:48.710 --> 00:08:50.290
that allows for a

329
00:08:50.290 --> 00:08:51.550
Bitcoin transaction today

330
00:08:51.550 --> 00:08:52.850
and Bitcoin mainnet to

331
00:08:52.850 --> 00:08:53.750
be post-quantum secure.

332
00:08:54.570 --> 00:08:56.670
On that last bit, we're calling it QSB,

333
00:08:56.670 --> 00:08:57.850
but essentially what

334
00:08:57.850 --> 00:08:58.210
one of our researchers

335
00:08:58.670 --> 00:08:59.870
have done is they managed

336
00:08:59.870 --> 00:09:01.050
to use the existing rules

337
00:09:01.050 --> 00:09:02.850
of Bitcoin today and they've managed

338
00:09:02.850 --> 00:09:05.690
to introduce a new spending mechanism

339
00:09:05.690 --> 00:09:07.570
on top of your public and private key.

340
00:09:07.570 --> 00:09:09.650
And that particular mechanism is a

341
00:09:10.150 --> 00:09:10.690
hash-based authorization.

342
00:09:11.410 --> 00:09:11.710
And so even if a quantum

343
00:09:12.010 --> 00:09:12.510
came online tomorrow,

344
00:09:12.510 --> 00:09:13.530
the way they break your

345
00:09:13.530 --> 00:09:14.850
Bitcoin and steal your Bitcoin is

346
00:09:14.850 --> 00:09:16.790
they take an exposed public key,

347
00:09:16.790 --> 00:09:18.070
they run Shor's

348
00:09:18.070 --> 00:09:19.630
algorithm and then doing so,

349
00:09:19.630 --> 00:09:20.890
they can derive your private key

350
00:09:20.890 --> 00:09:21.950
and then they can use

351
00:09:21.950 --> 00:09:22.970
your public and private key

352
00:09:22.970 --> 00:09:24.590
to authorize a fraudulent

353
00:09:24.590 --> 00:09:26.130
but valid spend transaction

354
00:09:26.650 --> 00:09:27.190
recognized by the network.

355
00:09:27.190 --> 00:09:28.710
They move your coins out of

356
00:09:28.710 --> 00:09:29.990
your custody into their control

357
00:09:29.990 --> 00:09:31.270
and they market sell or whatever.

358
00:09:31.450 --> 00:09:32.490
You've just essentially lost your coins.

359
00:09:32.630 --> 00:09:33.250
They've stolen it from you.

360
00:09:34.150 --> 00:09:35.650
What we've introduced with QSB

361
00:09:35.650 --> 00:09:36.490
is this new hash-based

362
00:09:37.090 --> 00:09:38.170
authorization mechanism,

363
00:09:38.170 --> 00:09:40.690
where even if a quantum computer took

364
00:09:40.690 --> 00:09:41.950
your exposed public key,

365
00:09:41.950 --> 00:09:44.070
derives your private key, and then tried

366
00:09:44.390 --> 00:09:45.170
to steal your coins,

367
00:09:45.170 --> 00:09:46.290
they still need that

368
00:09:47.130 --> 00:09:47.490
hash-based one-time authorization

369
00:09:47.490 --> 00:09:49.690
to do so, and that's post-quantum secure.

370
00:09:50.030 --> 00:09:51.710
That can't be broken today.

371
00:09:51.710 --> 00:09:52.430
And so they would

372
00:09:52.430 --> 00:09:54.490
still be unable to do so.

373
00:09:54.950 --> 00:09:56.050
The limitation though

374
00:09:56.050 --> 00:09:57.030
is that QSB is opt-in.

375
00:09:57.570 --> 00:09:58.510
So you have to move your

376
00:09:58.510 --> 00:09:59.490
Bitcoins from an address

377
00:09:59.490 --> 00:10:01.710
that doesn't have QSB into an address

378
00:10:01.710 --> 00:10:02.810
that has QSB enabled.

379
00:10:02.810 --> 00:10:04.570
And then for it to move out again,

380
00:10:04.570 --> 00:10:06.130
you'll need to pass the QSB component.

381
00:10:06.130 --> 00:10:07.930
And so it doesn't really

382
00:10:07.930 --> 00:10:09.590
solve the problem of like,

383
00:10:09.590 --> 00:10:11.470
Satoshi's coins being vulnerable,

384
00:10:11.470 --> 00:10:12.490
or all the lost coins in

385
00:10:12.490 --> 00:10:13.390
history being vulnerable,

386
00:10:13.390 --> 00:10:14.930
but does solve the problem of like,

387
00:10:14.930 --> 00:10:15.990
I have a thousand

388
00:10:15.990 --> 00:10:16.930
Bitcoin or a hundred Bitcoin,

389
00:10:16.930 --> 00:10:18.050
where should I put those?

390
00:10:18.330 --> 00:10:18.790
Well, you should

391
00:10:18.790 --> 00:10:20.110
probably put some portion of it

392
00:10:20.110 --> 00:10:21.950
in a QSB address if you think quantum

393
00:10:21.950 --> 00:10:23.650
has some possibility of happening,

394
00:10:23.650 --> 00:10:24.890
just so that you're hedged

395
00:10:24.890 --> 00:10:25.890
and you have an insurance

396
00:10:25.890 --> 00:10:28.050
taken out against the quantum threat.

397
00:10:28.164 --> 00:10:28.581
Very cool.

398
00:10:30.230 --> 00:10:31.590
I'm sure that you hang out

399
00:10:31.590 --> 00:10:32.750
with a lot of cool cryptographers

400
00:10:33.410 --> 00:10:34.310
who are working on the bleeding edge.

401
00:10:34.790 --> 00:10:37.410
Definitely not autistic.

402
00:10:38.410 --> 00:10:40.230
Yeah, very smart.

403
00:10:40.230 --> 00:10:41.190
And I'm kind of curious

404
00:10:41.190 --> 00:10:42.270
from your perspective,

405
00:10:42.270 --> 00:10:44.250
are you genuinely

406
00:10:44.250 --> 00:10:46.090
concerned about quantum resistance?

407
00:10:46.090 --> 00:10:47.250
There's a lot of

408
00:10:47.250 --> 00:10:49.230
conversations regarding hard forks

409
00:10:49.230 --> 00:10:50.790
or where Bitcoin is gonna go.

410
00:10:50.790 --> 00:10:52.370
And you guys are offering

411
00:10:52.370 --> 00:10:53.210
this solution with QSB,

412
00:10:54.230 --> 00:10:56.990
but where do you currently stand

413
00:10:56.990 --> 00:10:58.030
regarding the current

414
00:10:58.030 --> 00:10:59.430
landscape of quantum

415
00:10:59.430 --> 00:11:01.550
and how users might be

416
00:11:02.070 --> 00:11:02.890
needing to get ready?

417
00:11:03.973 --> 00:11:04.210
Yeah, like

418
00:11:04.210 --> 00:11:05.930
realistically, we're just one player

419
00:11:05.930 --> 00:11:07.350
within the broader Bitcoin ecosystem.

420
00:11:07.350 --> 00:11:09.090
And for the longest time,

421
00:11:09.090 --> 00:11:10.370
we've contributed towards Ethereum,

422
00:11:10.750 --> 00:11:11.290
contributed towards

423
00:11:11.290 --> 00:11:12.730
broader ZK cryptography.

424
00:11:14.390 --> 00:11:15.310
The reality is that

425
00:11:15.310 --> 00:11:16.570
Bitcoin Core as an organization

426
00:11:16.570 --> 00:11:18.050
is designed to move slowly.

427
00:11:18.590 --> 00:11:20.930
And I have the utmost faith that the

428
00:11:20.930 --> 00:11:21.730
smartest people there

429
00:11:21.730 --> 00:11:22.990
are going to make the right decision

430
00:11:22.990 --> 00:11:23.950
that protects Bitcoin

431
00:11:23.950 --> 00:11:25.030
when the moment arises.

432
00:11:25.030 --> 00:11:26.770
But until that moment arises,

433
00:11:26.770 --> 00:11:28.470
until there's like an existential threat,

434
00:11:28.470 --> 00:11:32.230
the network is designed to be resilient

435
00:11:32.230 --> 00:11:33.190
and it's designed to

436
00:11:33.190 --> 00:11:34.330
move slowly to ensure

437
00:11:34.330 --> 00:11:36.370
that the wrong decision isn't made.

438
00:11:36.370 --> 00:11:39.690
And so the question to us

439
00:11:39.690 --> 00:11:40.970
hasn't really been like,

440
00:11:40.970 --> 00:11:42.830
how realistic is quantum?

441
00:11:42.830 --> 00:11:43.770
When will it come?

442
00:11:43.770 --> 00:11:45.370
It's more just what can we contribute

443
00:11:45.370 --> 00:11:46.570
to this broader problem?

444
00:11:46.570 --> 00:11:48.330
And so what we've decided to contribute

445
00:11:48.330 --> 00:11:50.850
is like a temporary or like a solution

446
00:11:50.850 --> 00:11:53.170
that can be used while this

447
00:11:53.170 --> 00:11:54.990
actual thing is being resolved.

448
00:11:54.990 --> 00:11:56.230
And I have the utmost

449
00:11:56.230 --> 00:11:57.590
faith that it will be resolved

450
00:11:57.590 --> 00:11:58.790
when the time comes by

451
00:11:59.110 --> 00:12:00.150
the core Bitcoin community.

452
00:12:00.970 --> 00:12:01.270
Very nice.

453
00:12:01.830 --> 00:12:04.210
So when needed, there will

454
00:12:04.210 --> 00:12:05.710
be some kind of coordination.

455
00:12:05.710 --> 00:12:07.290
And until then, you guys

456
00:12:07.290 --> 00:12:08.310
will be working on solutions

457
00:12:08.310 --> 00:12:10.770
for if it happens, right?

458
00:12:11.870 --> 00:12:12.170
Exactly.

459
00:12:12.470 --> 00:12:13.670
As we continue, I'm

460
00:12:13.670 --> 00:12:14.850
curious if there's anything else

461
00:12:14.850 --> 00:12:16.690
in terms of Starknet that you wanna share

462
00:12:16.690 --> 00:12:19.090
or give people updates about.

463
00:12:22.710 --> 00:12:24.190
I think we've been building

464
00:12:24.190 --> 00:12:25.850
in a few directions, right?

465
00:12:25.850 --> 00:12:27.650
We've been building towards privacy,

466
00:12:27.650 --> 00:12:30.750
which is a generalized privacy stack

467
00:12:30.750 --> 00:12:31.850
that builders can use.

468
00:12:32.330 --> 00:12:32.550
We've been building

469
00:12:32.550 --> 00:12:33.950
towards quantum security,

470
00:12:33.950 --> 00:12:34.790
which is really a

471
00:12:34.790 --> 00:12:35.870
product that Bitcoin holders

472
00:12:35.870 --> 00:12:36.870
should be able to use themselves.

473
00:12:37.390 --> 00:12:37.930
And then we've been

474
00:12:37.930 --> 00:12:40.190
working on productizing

475
00:12:40.830 --> 00:12:42.790
additional use cases for Bitcoin holders.

476
00:12:42.790 --> 00:12:43.910
And that's in our

477
00:12:43.910 --> 00:12:45.250
stock PDC Bitcoin wrapper

478
00:12:45.550 --> 00:12:46.130
that you can stake on the

479
00:12:46.130 --> 00:12:47.190
network and own yield for.

480
00:12:47.190 --> 00:12:48.310
So I guess it kind of

481
00:12:48.310 --> 00:12:49.190
depends where you sit

482
00:12:49.190 --> 00:12:50.350
within those three categories.

483
00:12:51.030 --> 00:12:51.750
If you're a builder

484
00:12:51.750 --> 00:12:52.970
and privacy is something

485
00:12:52.970 --> 00:12:54.130
that benefits your

486
00:12:54.130 --> 00:12:54.950
particular application,

487
00:12:54.950 --> 00:12:56.130
then I think we have

488
00:12:56.130 --> 00:12:57.070
the most sophisticated

489
00:12:57.070 --> 00:12:58.710
general purpose privacy stack

490
00:12:58.710 --> 00:13:00.030
on the market available at the moment.

491
00:13:01.750 --> 00:13:03.530
STRK20 allows for any ERC20 asset

492
00:13:03.530 --> 00:13:05.110
bridged into the network to

493
00:13:05.110 --> 00:13:06.270
be put into a privacy pool

494
00:13:06.270 --> 00:13:07.570
where you're then all

495
00:13:07.570 --> 00:13:09.110
balances transfers spend

496
00:13:09.110 --> 00:13:10.610
is completely shielded from the network.

497
00:13:10.610 --> 00:13:11.510
But then you also have

498
00:13:11.510 --> 00:13:12.470
an opt-in viewing key

499
00:13:12.470 --> 00:13:13.130
that allows you to

500
00:13:13.130 --> 00:13:14.070
produce it to an auditor

501
00:13:14.070 --> 00:13:16.670
or producer to anyone you wish

502
00:13:16.670 --> 00:13:19.450
to to decrypt your transactions and

503
00:13:19.450 --> 00:13:21.030
then I think on the Bitcoin

504
00:13:21.030 --> 00:13:22.510
side it really comes down to

505
00:13:22.510 --> 00:13:23.790
your risk appetite and what you're

506
00:13:23.790 --> 00:13:24.790
looking for whether you're looking for

507
00:13:24.790 --> 00:13:26.130
protection insurance or whether you're looking

508
00:13:26.130 --> 00:13:27.690
for yield and or we have

509
00:13:27.690 --> 00:13:29.170
products for [unclear] as well.

510
00:13:29.170 --> 00:13:32.030
Amazing, Damian, thank you so

511
00:13:32.030 --> 00:13:33.450
much for joining us and sharing

512
00:13:33.450 --> 00:13:35.790
really the quantum resistance forefront of

513
00:13:35.790 --> 00:13:37.130
Bitcoin as well as all the

514
00:13:37.130 --> 00:13:38.070
cool things that you guys are

515
00:13:38.070 --> 00:13:40.010
working on at Starknet appreciate your

516
00:13:40.010 --> 00:13:42.610
time and yeah I appreciate you

517
00:13:42.610 --> 00:13:43.110
thanks bro