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NOTE Open Interest — fp-lee-sanctum. Draft: automatic transcript (faster-whisper small.en) of the released edit, automatic speaker assignment (resemblyzer, 2 speakers), corrections applied from the editorial glossary and OCR of the burned-in captions. Not yet reviewed line by line.

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<v Josh Han>Hello and welcome back to the content suite in Singapore.

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<v Josh Han>Today, I have the co-founder of Sanctum, the number one TVL protocol on Solana and FP.

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<v Josh Han>Before we get started and talking about Sanctum, FP, do you want to introduce yourself?

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, so I'm FP.

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<v FP Lee>I'm the co-founder and CEO of Sanctum.

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<v FP Lee>Sanctum has been around for over five years now.

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<v FP Lee>We just celebrated our five-year anniversary.

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<v FP Lee>We used to be called video liquid staking on Solana.

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<v Josh Han>A little bit of context between our relationship.

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<v Josh Han>I met FP probably around 2020, 2021.

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<v Josh Han>He and the team at Sanctum I believe are one of the most resilient teams I've personally met and invested in from going all the

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<v Josh Han>Whole rebrand.

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<v Josh Han>Do you want to dig a little bit deeper into how you met your teammates and the story of how you guys got here?

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, sure.

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<v FP Lee>Thanks for the kind words.

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<v FP Lee>We actually are all friends from high school, university and army.

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<v FP Lee>We all got together as a bunch and we thought we would just be doing a side project and then we didn't expect it to

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<v FP Lee>Go out of control as it were.

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<v FP Lee>Obviously, when we started, it was 2021.

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<v FP Lee>It was a very heady time, so to speak.

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<v FP Lee>We were lucky to raise at a bull market and then afterwards, it was like two years of pain in 2022, starting with the Ukraine

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<v FP Lee>War and then Three Arrows and Celsius and FTX and all this stuff.

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<v FP Lee>So that was pretty painful, but we didn't give up and then we kept going.

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<v FP Lee>So now we're here and we've been five years in and I hope to have another more five years ahead.

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<v Josh Han>Yeah, I mean, talking a little bit about war stories from FTX and all the things before, what do you think it is about you

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<v Josh Han>And your co-founders that gives you guys the resilience and the ability to continue from the same team base?

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<v FP Lee>I guess maybe the first says that we are not too smart.

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<v FP Lee>We don't, you know, maybe if you are too good, you have lots of options.

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<v FP Lee>No, I'm joking.

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<v FP Lee>I think there is the number one reason that companies fail is co-founders are breaking up.

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<v FP Lee>They no longer trust each other to do their best work or they fundamentally disagree.

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<v FP Lee>And of course, we have our fair share of disagreements or approach, but by and large, I think we have a very strong appreciation for

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<v FP Lee>Everyone's skill sets.

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<v FP Lee>There are four of us, which is, I guess, not typical,

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<v FP Lee>But, you know, yeah, we make decisions.

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<v FP Lee>I am sort of technically the co-founder and CEO, but really a lot of the decisions we always run by each other before we

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<v FP Lee>Make these decisions.

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<v FP Lee>And so, you know, there's a lot of trust.

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<v FP Lee>And then also, when we fuck up, which happens all the time, right, at least it's not a, you know, it's a we made this

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<v FP Lee>Decision together and, you know, we are all learning it from it.

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, but, you know, each of us have a very different skill set.

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<v FP Lee>And then we just trust each other to execute.

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<v FP Lee>But at the same time, we're also very collaborative with how we make decisions and assign responsibilities.

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<v Josh Han>Yeah, I think that trust has obviously led you guys to a lot of success today.

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<v Josh Han>Maybe talk a little bit about where you guys are currently positioned in the market with your guys's LST and current product line.

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<v Josh Han>Yeah.

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<v FP Lee>So Sanctum's core business is we do liquid staking on Solana.

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<v FP Lee>And this is when we say liquid staking on Solana, people always misunderstand.

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<v FP Lee>They think we're like Lido or something.

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<v FP Lee>And actually Sanctum's model is actually uniquely different from Lido's model.

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<v FP Lee>So Lido, for example, has one stake token, stETH.

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<v FP Lee>We actually have over 100.

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<v FP Lee>We do something called LST as a service.

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<v FP Lee>We work with partners, protocols, exchangers, so like Jupiter, Bybit, Jupiter.com.

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<v FP Lee>And then that's also like Forward Industries, the FDB, to issue sort of white label LSTs.

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<v FP Lee>And so if you are someone who holds Solana on behalf of your clients or have users that hold SOL, you're able to build like

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<v FP Lee>A white label liquid staking token and then Sanctum handles sort of all the infrastructure around that.

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<v FP Lee>And all you need to do is for someone to hold your token and then you earn money from it.

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<v FP Lee>So that's a very different operating model.

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<v FP Lee>And the reason we're able to do such a thing is because we've built something on Solana that's a unified liquidity layer.

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<v FP Lee>So even though these are all technically different LSTs, they actually all plug into the same liquidity pool, which is obviously very important for liquid

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<v FP Lee>Staking token to be liquid.

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<v FP Lee>And so this combination of distributed or decentralized distribution of LSTs to partner with a kind of unified and universal liquidity layer allows us to

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<v FP Lee>Get the best of both worlds.

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<v FP Lee>And so this is a quite an innovative model, which we haven't seen before.

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<v FP Lee>And now that we've done it on Solana, we've seen other chains.

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, people are the chains adopted.

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<v Josh Han>It's very different fundamentally, because now everyone gets to have their own branded LST.

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<v Josh Han>And it's a B2B type model.

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<v Josh Han>Tell me a little bit about how you guys came to be number one through these co branded models.

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<v Josh Han>Was there specific moments in the timeline that really increase TVL or like, right, spark something new?

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<v FP Lee>So I, I think people are, you know, we as humans were always reaching for mono causal explanations of things.

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<v FP Lee>And you know, that's, that's like, it makes sense, right.

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<v FP Lee>But in reality, kind of,

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<v FP Lee>You know, life is always a little bit more complicated than that.

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<v FP Lee>We had one key insight, which is that we, it was actually possible to build this sort of universal liquidity layer, that was simply not

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<v FP Lee>The received wisdom.

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<v FP Lee>I remember when we were raising people like, well, how are you going to be number one LST is how winner takes all and this

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<v FP Lee>And that.

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<v FP Lee>And that was very much the received wisdom, because that's the case on Ethereum.

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<v FP Lee>But on Solana, it's different, right?

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<v FP Lee>There is just one key technical detail on about the Solana chain, about stake accounts of Solana, that makes that not, not the case.

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<v FP Lee>And this little one fact sort of has all sorts of downstream implications, which then sort of allowed us to build this very unique model.

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<v FP Lee>And so yes, we were lucky to sort of like, hit upon this insight and, you know, develop upon it and not give up along

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<v FP Lee>The way.

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<v FP Lee>I also have to give a big thank you to our partners as well, right, because,

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<v FP Lee>You know, all these big protocols, they have better distribution than Sanctum ever does, right.

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<v FP Lee>And so we're able to solve borrow their distribution and, you know, build it into a win-win situation where they win because they make

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<v FP Lee>Funds and their users get yield.

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<v FP Lee>And then we also take our cut.

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<v FP Lee>So it's, yeah, this is a, I like this because we all win together.

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<v FP Lee>Right.

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<v Josh Han>That makes a lot of sense.

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<v Josh Han>I've seen the co-branded, whether that's Jupiter Soul being able to be deposited within their money market for different perp exchanges.

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<v Josh Han>So it's really a win-win scenario.

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<v Josh Han>Tell me a little bit more about the current landscape and state of liquid staking we are and how you see this industry moving with

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<v Josh Han>Solana kind of entering this new chapter of like capital markets.

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<v Josh Han>Yeah.

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<v FP Lee>So we do see kind of, so I think that all Solana should be just liquid staked.

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<v FP Lee>I think it's very clear that liquid staking, it just gives you like all the advantage.

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<v Josh Han>It's kind of like the holy grail.

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<v FP Lee>It's like how it should have been all along.

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<v FP Lee>Right.

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<v FP Lee>In my opinion, because like staking, you know, you take this liquidity penalty and then it's not, it's not composable.

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<v FP Lee>It's not a token, right?

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<v FP Lee>It's not a Solana program token.

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<v FP Lee>You can't use it in DeFi.

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<v FP Lee>You can't do anything with it.

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<v FP Lee>You have to sort of special case it all the way and it's just not a great UX.

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<v FP Lee>A token really is the cleanest expression of, you know, we're talking about tokenizing equities, right?

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<v FP Lee>It makes sense, right?

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<v FP Lee>Everything should be a token and liquid staking tokens are just like a really nice user experience for everyone.

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<v FP Lee>Yeah.

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<v FP Lee>With that said, I think we are also seeing, we are pleasantly surprised by sort of some of the liquid staking people that we wouldn't

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<v FP Lee>Otherwise think of adopting liquid staking suddenly coming to be interested in adopting liquid staking.

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<v FP Lee>And so as the regulations are becoming clearer, right, we're seeing all these like regulated financial institutions or like public companies like, you know, Solana

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<v FP Lee>DTS and so on, they are embracing liquid staking tokens with open arms really.

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<v FP Lee>Again, it's because I think as Solana gets bigger and more sophisticated,

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<v FP Lee>Staking is not enough.

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<v FP Lee>Like that's table stakes, right?

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<v FP Lee>If you want to do more with your money, capital efficiency, borrow, leverage, run strategies, etc.

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<v FP Lee>You know, LSTs are the only way to do that.

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<v FP Lee>And so yeah, we are seeing this uptake as the kind of bar for execution or like the demand, right?

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<v FP Lee>All these institutions gets higher and higher and they've become more sophisticated.

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<v FP Lee>We see a big uptake in this demand.

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<v Josh Han>That makes a lot of sense.

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<v Josh Han>So I'm on the same bucket.

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<v Josh Han>If you are holding just plain SOL, you are losing out, right?

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<v Josh Han>You're losing out on the interest or some other ways of being able to use it as margin or collateral.

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<v Josh Han>It's taking a step back as we talk about tokens.

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<v Josh Han>Why Solana?

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<v Josh Han>I mean, you guys had the opportunity, I think, to exit or maybe build on another L1, L2, but you guys have really stuck to

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<v Josh Han>Solana focusing on this as the ecosystem that you want to build on.

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<v Josh Han>Tell me more about that decision.

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<v FP Lee>So when we picked Solana five years ago, six years ago, almost, we picked it for really two reasons.

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<v FP Lee>It was fast and it was cheap.

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<v FP Lee>And also it's written in Rust and that's cool.

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<v FP Lee>But you know, I think that's a little bit secondary.

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<v FP Lee>So fast and cheap.

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<v FP Lee>And since then, Solana has gotten faster and cheaper.

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<v FP Lee>And also richer as well, right?

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<v FP Lee>So I think this one we didn't quite foresee.

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<v FP Lee>But to me, that's what a blockchain should be.

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<v FP Lee>That's what it needs to be.

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<v FP Lee>And I will say two things.

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<v FP Lee>One is I think that the Solana Foundation is very aggressive with taking care of the blockchain, the ecosystem,

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<v FP Lee>And growing it.

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<v FP Lee>They're very aggressive and they've been good stewards of the network.

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<v FP Lee>And the second thing is that as Solana has gotten success, it's also gotten more Solana.

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<v FP Lee>Five years ago, we were like one plucky startup.

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<v FP Lee>Why not, right?

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<v FP Lee>And now I feel like there's a real case we made that Solana is now sort of like the default choice for institutions wanting to

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<v FP Lee>Tokenize their assets.

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<v FP Lee>And so I think the change gets better and better every day.

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<v FP Lee>It continues to deliver on its promise of being fast and cheap.

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<v FP Lee>So I don't think we've ever looked back.

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<v FP Lee>Yeah.

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<v Josh Han>As Solana focuses on more tokenizing more real world assets and institutions come on board.

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<v Josh Han>What is your plan to work with these institutions or kind of be on that path?

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, so we have seen like a sea change.

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<v FP Lee>So we were at KBW last week.

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<v FP Lee>And the real change in how we see these institutions talking to us is that I'm like a year or two ago, they were like,

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<v FP Lee>Hey, tell me about staking, tell me about Solana, tell me about etc.

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<v FP Lee>And now the conversations are taking a very distinctly different tone.

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<v FP Lee>They are asking or when can we sign next week.

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<v FP Lee>And so that's, you know, that's, that's great news.

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<v FP Lee>Again, it's all the work that has been done, you know, to lay the groundwork for a day like today.

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<v FP Lee>So, you know, we are happy to be in a privileged position that when someone thinks about Solana, Solana staking yields on Solana, Sanctum is

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<v FP Lee>One of the top contenders there, or we might just be the first name that comes up.

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<v FP Lee>We enjoy a good relationship with the Solana Foundation.

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<v Josh Han>We respect them very much.

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, so I will, you know, I really look forward to welcoming all these institutions.

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<v Josh Han>I think it does make sense if DeFi founders are trusting their liquid staking with Sanctum, the biggest institutions would as well.

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<v Josh Han>Cool.

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<v Josh Han>So, as you guys have become the number one TVL protocol on Solana, you guys have also released a token.

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<v Josh Han>I believe it's been around a year.

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<v Josh Han>Tell me throughout that process, what led to the rebrand and where you guys are now.

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, so we originally launched it as CLOUD and we since rebranded it to SANC.

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<v FP Lee>The reason was, I think it's just CLOUD was a very cute name and it's our logo, but nobody quite connects it to the token.

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<v FP Lee>So I think we tried to be too clever there.

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<v FP Lee>It's better not to be clever.

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<v FP Lee>That's a number one learning,

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<v FP Lee>You know, but obviously that's not, you know, not too big a deal.

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<v FP Lee>You can just change it.

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<v Josh Han>It's obvious that you guys, there's many teams in crypto where the token is the product.

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<v Josh Han>And for you guys, your LST solution is one of the biggest products in crypto.

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<v Josh Han>From that perspective, how do you guys think about token design or how that should play a role in the Sanctum ecosystem?

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, so I do get a lot of questions about these, about sort of token and how it works and where's the value accrual, etc.

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<v FP Lee>I think that a lot of crypto founders focus a lot on their token, how their token is doing and not enough about how their

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<v FP Lee>Business or their company is doing.

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<v FP Lee>I take a little bit of a contrarian view.

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<v FP Lee>Of course, I care about wanting a token to go up.

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<v FP Lee>I own a lot of it.

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<v FP Lee>But I think like the base level should be, can you build a successful, sustainable, profitable business?

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<v FP Lee>And then, as the fundamental value of your business, your intrinsic value of business continues to improve and increase, the token's price should come with

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<v FP Lee>It.

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<v FP Lee>And so, you know, in the short term, the market is a voting machine.

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<v FP Lee>It's often a lot of narrative driven stuff, but in the long term, it's a weighing machine.

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<v FP Lee>And so I believe that my job here is really just to make sure Sanctum is the best, best business that it can be, and

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<v FP Lee>Then bring the token along.

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<v FP Lee>Or token value accrual.

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<v FP Lee>Right.

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<v Josh Han>I think it makes a lot of sense for business to be at or sorry, one more time.

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<v Josh Han>For a business,

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<v Josh Han>At the beginning stages of business, it makes a lot of sense that you want to focus all of your efforts towards growing revenue and

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<v Josh Han>Growing the core business.

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<v Josh Han>There's many projects, let's say like Pump, who are doing buybacks.

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<v Josh Han>And maybe that's similar to companies like Apple, where they're doing dividends or buybacks of their own stock.

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<v Josh Han>Where do you guys view that for Sanctum and SANC?

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, I think you hit the nail right on the head.

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<v FP Lee>I think in crypto, people are a little bit sort of extreme.

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<v FP Lee>I mean,

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<v FP Lee>Twitter never rewards no one's right.

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<v FP Lee>And so we got slack ones, which is like, oh, Sanctum team thinks buyback sucks.

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<v FP Lee>Why do they hate buybacks?

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<v FP Lee>No, actually, we really like buybacks.

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<v FP Lee>I think that buybacks are kind of like the cleanest way to drive value back to the token.

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<v FP Lee>And but I'm in a camp of it's not never do buybacks.

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<v FP Lee>It's and it's not always do buybacks.

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<v FP Lee>Buybacks are a capital allocation decision, they should be made in a considered and discretionary manner.

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<v FP Lee>If and when the token is at the lowest, I mean, you want to buyback the token if and only if it gives you the

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<v FP Lee>Best return on your investor capital as a capital allocator.

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<v FP Lee>And that means that the price should be good, low.

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<v FP Lee>And, you know, you can't think of anything else to do with your money that has the same rate of return.

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<v FP Lee>So buybacks are good, but they should be done discretionary and counter cyclically, not sort of programmatically is like, oh, every day we buy it

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<v FP Lee>Until all time high and continue to buy it.

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<v FP Lee>Even though that appeases often appeases the crypto crowd.

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<v FP Lee>I don't think that's the right approach.

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<v FP Lee>Right?

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<v Josh Han>That makes a lot of sense.

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<v Josh Han>How have you been gearing towards the company balance sheet then and investing that?

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, that's a great question.

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<v FP Lee>So I so Sanctum is, is a is a company that has, in my opinion, a pretty strong and good core business that people actually

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<v FP Lee>Pay for.

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<v FP Lee>I'm proud of that.

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<v FP Lee>It's obviously not the hugest business in the world.

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<v FP Lee>And the way I think about it is very different from sort of VC backstop.

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<v FP Lee>I think most people in my position will try to pivot and find like, oh, what's the trillion dollar opportunity?

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<v FP Lee>I don't think we need to do that.

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<v FP Lee>First of all, liquid staking on SOL, it's not big right now, but it could be very big.

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<v FP Lee>And there's still a big portion of the pie for us to to capture.

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<v FP Lee>We only take, for example, 3% of all SOL today.

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<v FP Lee>But even then, I think that we there is a case where we don't have to pivot and we use the we have a we

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<v FP Lee>Have a good profitable business with good moats.

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<v FP Lee>We use the cash flows from their business to reinvest in R&D to build or buy the next good business with good moats and

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<v FP Lee>Cash flow.

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<v FP Lee>And we just repeat this process again and again until Sanctum becomes a billion dollar company.

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<v FP Lee>And I think that this approach is really quite criminally underrated by by crypto Twitter, because people want this big narrative, right?

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<v FP Lee>Because, oh, shit, this could be trillions, you know, it's like, oh, hold on.

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<v FP Lee>It's like, you know, don't get me wrong.

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<v FP Lee>That is good.

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<v FP Lee>There's time and space for that.

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<v FP Lee>But it's not the only path to success.

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<v Josh Han>So really cash flow, revenue in that profit and kind of almost thinking about it, putting on the hat of like a private equity investor

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<v Josh Han>Rather than venture money and pouring it into the product.

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<v FP Lee>So since we raised all the way back in 2021, we actually haven't raised any more money from private investors.

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<v FP Lee>There was like a little tiny round there, but that's strategic for strategic reasons rather than wanting to raise more money.

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<v FP Lee>Yeah.

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<v FP Lee>I really think of I always every time I raise, right?

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<v FP Lee>I'm like, okay, this is the last one, right?

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<v FP Lee>We don't raise anymore.

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<v FP Lee>And then we want to run a sustainable and profitable business because every time you're raised, you're diluting.

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<v FP Lee>And I believe that I can build something valuable.

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<v FP Lee>So why am I diluting myself?

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<v FP Lee>Right?

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<v FP Lee>Unless I need the money.

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<v FP Lee>So we, you know, we tend to be quite prudent in how we spend, right?

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<v FP Lee>Last year, we turned to profit, but at the same time, we're not risk averse either, right?

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<v FP Lee>So for example, I'm where we hired a lot of people today to push institutional sales and some of the new products that we're building.

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<v FP Lee>All of this is like we want to spend to build, to buy or build R&D into the next business.

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<v FP Lee>So we are all about that.

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<v FP Lee>But we also don't spend like money, you know, or we don't run businesses with negative unit economics just to sort of make a good

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<v FP Lee>Narrative on this line.

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<v FP Lee>Okay.

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<v Josh Han>So as a Sanctum investor, I'm aware that there's a lot of different places that you guys can put your capital and go towards new

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<v Josh Han>Products.

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<v Josh Han>Where do you think is the biggest opportunity within crypto right now?

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<v Josh Han>Yeah.

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<v FP Lee>So the way we think about taking our bets is that we do, we do one small bet a year, and then one big bet

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<v FP Lee>A year.

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<v FP Lee>And a small bet is something that we're pretty sure is going to work like it's a status, not say status quo, but it's like,

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<v FP Lee>Okay, you know, it's it's a layup.

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<v FP Lee>And then, yeah, exactly.

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<v FP Lee>And then there's a big bet, which is like, yeah, we're not sure this is going to work.

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<v FP Lee>But if it works, it's like a multiple on the existing business, a big multiple, potentially.

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<v FP Lee>And so, like, for us, this helps because it's like, we're not really service.

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<v FP Lee>But we also know that, okay, there's always something to fall back on, if it doesn't work.

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<v FP Lee>And again, going into it, not expecting it to fail.

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<v FP Lee>But, you know, just sort of having the right sort of mindset, like, this is big, it's a moonshot.

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<v FP Lee>But let's go for it anyway.

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<v Josh Han>Yes, please tell me what is the moonshot.

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<v Josh Han>Yeah.

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<v FP Lee>So we are, we are building Sanctum App.

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<v FP Lee>So we just announced of Sanctum App 2.0.

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<v FP Lee>And really, the Sanctum App is us trying to go up the value chain and reach to the consumer directly, because previously, with what been

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<v FP Lee>More of a B2B2C business,

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<v FP Lee>What Sanctum App is, is that it's an app for the serious investor, we think that a lot of the discourse of a lot of

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<v FP Lee>The incentives are pushing apps and protocols to kind of push people towards gambling, right?

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<v FP Lee>So you have perps, you have more leverage, more, you know, lose your money faster.

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<v FP Lee>And there are strong financial incentives to do that.

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<v FP Lee>Because, you know, let's be frank, I mean, like Sanctum as an AUM business, you know, it's like, but if you can get people to

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<v FP Lee>Trade, oh, then you're really raking it in.

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<v FP Lee>So I understand where that's coming from.

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<v FP Lee>But personally, I feel that the really the way that one reliably grows wealth, instead of ruining themselves, is really to buy and hold good

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<v FP Lee>Assets for the long term.

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<v FP Lee>And what I've noticed in crypto is that we are now, as the industry is maturing a little bit starting to think about things like

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<v FP Lee>Fundamentals, and oh, there's a protocol actually work and make money and all this stuff.

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<v FP Lee>And so I feel like there are going to be a lot of good investible assets in a native crypto asset class, right?

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<v FP Lee>And people care about this stuff now.

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<v FP Lee>And so I think the tide is changing.

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<v FP Lee>And I want to build for these investors who are here to buy and hold good assets for the long term, rather than trying to

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<v FP Lee>Service or encourage more sort of trading activity necessarily.

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<v FP Lee>Nice.

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<v Josh Han>So Sanctum's real big push is going down the value chain, hitting the consumer, giving them an app that they can store and grow their

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<v FP Lee>Wealth in.

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<v Josh Han>I've known FP since 2020 when we hopped on their first call and invested when I worked at a Solana ecosystem fund.

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<v Josh Han>Since then, I've seen you guys go through a lot of lows and highs, whether that's the rebranding of Socean.

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<v Josh Han>And now, I think unexpectedly, you guys are the number one TVL protocol on Solana.

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<v Josh Han>I think I would love for you to take a step back and look at the timeline about big major pivot points.

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<v Josh Han>I know there's been a lot of lows and highs.

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<v Josh Han>But if you can tell me about core memories you have, I would really like to listen.

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, so I think the a lot of our sort of, you know, whatever success that we have today, and obviously, we have a long

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<v FP Lee>Way to go still.

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<v FP Lee>I think a lot of it is just being in the right place at the right time.

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<v FP Lee>But I also think a lot of it is not giving up.

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<v FP Lee>So one thing I will really give credit to ourselves, to the co-founders, is that we really went, Solana was at it's extremely low.

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<v FP Lee>We really just stuck it out.

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<v FP Lee>And we're like, let's give it a try.

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<v FP Lee>Let's do one more shot.

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<v FP Lee>And if it doesn't work, fine.

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<v FP Lee>But it was like, it was so painful to build in that depth of the bear market because you build anything and there's just no

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<v FP Lee>Interest whatsoever.

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<v FP Lee>Like none, you get like two signups, right?

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<v FP Lee>And so I think that that did require some grit to get through.

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<v FP Lee>But I think what helps me is two things.

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<v FP Lee>One is this notion of like,

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<v FP Lee>Building something positive, something good for the world, right?

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<v FP Lee>And so what I really like about our product is that it sort of makes everyone money, right?

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<v FP Lee>It makes the stake of money, it makes our partners money, it makes us money, and nobody loses.

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<v FP Lee>And so, you know, doing something that's positive, something in this way, kind of gives me the fortitude and the conviction to keep going.

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<v FP Lee>Whereas, personally, I wouldn't be sort of able to sleep at night if I were sort of building something that I suspected or I knew

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<v FP Lee>Was sort of meaningfully making people's lives worse.

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, and I guess the second thing really is I think people recognize the effort that you put in, sort of just showing up every

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<v FP Lee>Day.

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<v FP Lee>And, you know, while, you know, we now we are number one, and I hope we will continue to be number one going forward, but

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<v FP Lee>That was like two years or two or three years where the TVL was like zero, and you look at the graph, it just goes

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<v FP Lee>Like this.

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<v FP Lee>And, you know,

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<v FP Lee>Of course, there's a little bit of a hindsight bias here, but I think

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<v FP Lee>The initial idea for Sanctum, you know, for all of this, I had it really early in 2022, but really, it only took it took

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<v FP Lee>Us till now to kind of, okay, yeah, I guess the model works, right?

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<v FP Lee>So things always take really long, like much longer than that they should.

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<v FP Lee>But I think if you just show up and, you know, people see you, people see that your earners and willing to work, they, you

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<v FP Lee>Know, we are quite indebted to the Solana Foundation who have been supporting us all this while, Solana Labs, now Anza, right?

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<v FP Lee>Yeah, we've just benefited a lot.

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<v FP Lee>And I think in the sea of grifters, where everyone's trying to come in, extract, make a quick buck, if you are here to stay

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<v FP Lee>The course, I think that counts for a lot for your reputation.

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<v FP Lee>Amazing.

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<v Josh Han>Thank you so much, FP, one of the most resilient founders I've met in crypto.

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<v Josh Han>Please check out Sanctum and thank you for your time today.

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<v FP Lee>Thank you for having me.