WEBVTT NOTE Open Interest — garrison-hyunsu-forward-hyperion. Draft: automatic transcript (faster-whisper small.en) of the released edit, automatic speaker assignment (resemblyzer, 3 speakers), corrections applied from the editorial glossary and OCR of the burned-in captions. Not yet reviewed line by line. 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.920 Thank you for joining Panoramic Content Suite, Singapore edition, alongside Token2049, MBS 2 00:00:05.920 --> 00:00:06.920 In the backdrop. 3 00:00:06.920 --> 00:00:08.040 We've got exciting guests today. 4 00:00:08.040 --> 00:00:09.840 This is the debate podcast. 5 00:00:09.840 --> 00:00:16.160 We've got Garrison, CMO of Forward Industries here, and Hyunsu, CEO of Hyperion. 6 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:20.160 So two super exciting companies join us. 7 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:26.960 And debate, you know, why Forward Industries, why Hyperion, and we'll get into the depths 8 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:27.960 Of it. 9 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:30.640 But yeah, well, thank you for joining us. 10 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:31.800 Super excited to have you guys here. 11 00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:33.400 Great to be here. 12 00:00:33.400 --> 00:00:34.400 Likewise. 13 00:00:34.400 --> 00:00:37.920 To kick things off, just wanted to go straight into it. 14 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:45.880 I wanted to ask you each, but the public company's balance sheet on one chain, Forward on Solana, 15 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:49.240 Hyperliquid, Hyperion on Hyperliquid. 16 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:55.160 So yeah, make the case that why, you know, you guys made the smarter choice between the 17 00:00:55.160 --> 00:00:56.160 Two. 18 00:00:56.160 --> 00:00:59.520 Yeah, for us, it was pretty straightforward. 19 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:06.040 When the Hyperliquid team implemented the assistance fund buybacks mechanism after the TGE in November 20 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:11.080 Of 2024, we saw that they were taking value accrual probably the most seriously that we 21 00:01:11.080 --> 00:01:13.000 Ever seen in the industry. 22 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:17.480 And at the same time, Hyperliquid was just starting to generate, you know, its meaningful 23 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:21.160 Amount of substantial recurring revenue month over month, day over day. 24 00:01:21.160 --> 00:01:24.320 And annualized last year, I believe it was around $750 million. 25 00:01:24.320 --> 00:01:29.960 We're on track for that or a little bit more, which includes [unclear] or the fees generated 26 00:01:29.960 --> 00:01:33.760 From stablecoins, USDC stablecoin available on the blockchain. 27 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:38.340 So that annualizes to almost a billion dollars or more revenue per year. 28 00:01:38.340 --> 00:01:41.940 And that's all going back to buying back the HYPE token off the open market. 29 00:01:41.940 --> 00:01:48.000 So it was a kind of marginal buyer that is always supporting the amount of supply 30 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:49.000 Available on the market. 31 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:52.000 And it made a lot of sense to us to add that to our balance sheet. 32 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:56.440 And more importantly, HYPE has a lot of utility and being able to stake it for trading fee 33 00:01:56.440 --> 00:02:01.760 Reductions or launching HIP-3 and HIP-4 markets, it actually allows us to build an operating 34 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:08.220 Business around the token, which is what Hyperion was intending to do from the beginning. 35 00:02:08.220 --> 00:02:13.660 For us, the reason why SOL is our treasury asset of choice is because SOL has a level 36 00:02:13.660 --> 00:02:18.900 Of leanness to it that I think a lot of other ecosystems do not. 37 00:02:18.900 --> 00:02:23.700 And for Forward, our vision is to build what we call SOL++. 38 00:02:23.700 --> 00:02:27.900 And so the idea is that we want to deliver a vehicle for public markets investors that 39 00:02:27.900 --> 00:02:31.580 Outperform SOL when price is rising and outperform SOL on the way down. 40 00:02:31.580 --> 00:02:36.500 And SOL++ effectively represents the SOL we hold plus the yield that we earn in both 41 00:02:36.500 --> 00:02:40.220 SOL-denominated yield as well as US dollar-denominated revenue. 42 00:02:40.220 --> 00:02:44.980 And then the investments that we can make to give our shareholders unique access and 43 00:02:44.980 --> 00:02:47.900 Upside to the SOL ecosystem as it grows. 44 00:02:47.900 --> 00:02:54.620 In order to do that, right, to deliver the SOL++ value proposition, you need an extremely 45 00:02:54.620 --> 00:02:57.220 Robust ecosystem, right? 46 00:02:57.220 --> 00:03:04.340 For us, we look at SOL and Solana broadly and we see incredible growth in things like 47 00:03:04.340 --> 00:03:08.700 Tokenized real world assets and things like OnRe. 48 00:03:08.700 --> 00:03:14.060 We see a very vibrant DeFi ecosystem that has obviously been around multiple cycles. 49 00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:20.140 And we see really different pockets of activity in things like meme coins, on-chain trading. 50 00:03:20.140 --> 00:03:22.620 Now we're seeing tokenized equities grow. 51 00:03:22.620 --> 00:03:28.660 And this diversity and vibrance in the different things that people are building allows a vehicle 52 00:03:28.660 --> 00:03:33.740 Like Forward to have a lot of optionality and ways that we can build value and create value 53 00:03:33.740 --> 00:03:34.980 For our shareholders. 54 00:03:34.980 --> 00:03:38.940 It's something that has a lot of room to work with. 55 00:03:38.940 --> 00:03:42.500 And then you have an underlying asset that represents that growth. 56 00:03:42.500 --> 00:03:43.500 Amazing. 57 00:03:43.820 --> 00:03:49.340 So I think I'm kind of seeing a little bit of the main topics that are being touched here, 58 00:03:49.340 --> 00:03:57.020 Which is yield and revenue, which seems like an important approach from both sides of the 59 00:03:57.020 --> 00:03:58.020 Parties here. 60 00:03:58.020 --> 00:04:03.180 I think that initially we saw as a holding company just for digital assets, underlying 61 00:04:03.180 --> 00:04:04.180 Digital assets. 62 00:04:04.180 --> 00:04:06.700 But now just doing that isn't enough. 63 00:04:06.700 --> 00:04:11.740 You got to make assets productive, utilize it, earn yield or revenue. 64 00:04:11.740 --> 00:04:17.260 And then ideally that goes back into the company and ideally the holders benefit from it as 65 00:04:17.260 --> 00:04:18.260 Well. 66 00:04:18.260 --> 00:04:23.260 And second part is part of this yield strategy or revenue strategy, I guess differs between 67 00:04:23.260 --> 00:04:29.660 Solana and HYPE because of the different ecosystems you guys reside in. 68 00:04:29.660 --> 00:04:35.020 Maybe it'd be interesting to dive a little deeper into some of the opportunities you guys 69 00:04:35.020 --> 00:04:43.620 Are seeing in terms of your respective ecosystems and why is it a better ecosystem to generate 70 00:04:43.620 --> 00:04:45.500 Revenue with assets you hold? 71 00:04:45.500 --> 00:04:47.260 Yeah, I can take that one first. 72 00:04:47.260 --> 00:04:53.740 So obviously Solana is one of the ecosystems that has, I'll say, a relatively higher base 73 00:04:53.740 --> 00:04:55.860 Taking yield today. 74 00:04:55.860 --> 00:05:01.100 And as we know, with the recent SIMDs that passed, that sinking rate is actually going 75 00:05:01.100 --> 00:05:02.100 To... 76 00:05:02.100 --> 00:05:03.980 The disinflation rate is going to increase. 77 00:05:03.980 --> 00:05:09.220 So we'll hit terminal inflation rate a little bit faster, which ultimately is a tailwind 78 00:05:09.220 --> 00:05:11.820 For the asset price rate and ration market. 79 00:05:11.820 --> 00:05:18.220 But even besides base staking yield, one of the reasons why we find Solana very interested 80 00:05:18.220 --> 00:05:22.900 In yield perspective is that, again, the diversity of businesses and companies are being 81 00:05:22.900 --> 00:05:27.500 Built on Solana means that there are a lot of opportunities for a company like us to not 82 00:05:27.500 --> 00:05:32.540 Only generate Solana-denominated yield, which is, again, ultimately a double down 83 00:05:32.540 --> 00:05:38.500 On the trajectory of SOL price as the underlying asset, but more importantly, diversifying our 84 00:05:38.500 --> 00:05:42.860 Yield with US dollar denominated non-correlated yield. 85 00:05:42.860 --> 00:05:51.420 As a public company vehicle, our goal is not only to accrue SOL per share, to deliver absolute 86 00:05:51.420 --> 00:06:00.200 SOL growth for investors, but also to make a vehicle that doesn't have an inherent drag 87 00:06:00.200 --> 00:06:02.720 On us just simply holding these. 88 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:08.640 So I think this goes back to, regardless of what ecosystem a DAT is investing in or pushing 89 00:06:08.640 --> 00:06:14.200 Forward, the concept of a DAT is really interesting in terms of ways that we can deliver differentiated 90 00:06:14.200 --> 00:06:15.200 Value to investors. 91 00:06:15.200 --> 00:06:19.520 I know this is a bit of a tangent, but if you're an investor and you're thinking about 92 00:06:19.520 --> 00:06:25.160 Getting exposure to an asset, whether it's SOL or HYPE or what have you, the question 93 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:29.760 You have to ask yourself is, what is the price that you are paying for that exposure? 94 00:06:29.760 --> 00:06:33.800 And how does the shape of exposure change from vehicle to vehicle? 95 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:41.760 And so there are some vehicles out there that are effectively just leveraged with the underlying. 96 00:06:41.760 --> 00:06:47.800 And for that leveraged, you are paying up extra because the DAT has fixed costs, they're 97 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:50.160 Paying salaries, whatever. 98 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:56.000 For an ETF, you're paying a fee, a management fee, both of these vehicles get you access 99 00:06:56.000 --> 00:07:00.400 To staking yield, typically like a [unclear] staking yield. 100 00:07:00.400 --> 00:07:04.280 And if you want leverage, there are other products as well, options and perps. 101 00:07:04.280 --> 00:07:12.720 So for DATs, what's most important is that the goal is that differentiated value rate, 102 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:17.960 The U.S. Dollar general yield, the SOL yield, the investments, the goal is to create a package 103 00:07:17.960 --> 00:07:22.640 Of things that most investors would typically not. 104 00:07:22.640 --> 00:07:30.200 So that could be capital markets access, that could be our advantageous cost of capital. 105 00:07:30.200 --> 00:07:36.120 We're borrowing at around 3.4, 3.5% of the average for our borrow with institutional lenders 106 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:42.400 And then redeploy that capital in a way that is using our balance sheet and deploying it 107 00:07:42.400 --> 00:07:49.400 Into tokenized RWAs to earn yield, that is investing in ecosystem companies using our 108 00:07:49.400 --> 00:07:53.960 Access and relationships that most investors might have access to. 109 00:07:53.960 --> 00:07:58.240 And again, bringing it back to the original question, we think Solana is a really great 110 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:02.480 Ecosystem for driving that yield, because it is very robust, it's been around for a 111 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:07.200 Very long time, there's enormous diversity of builders, it's a much more mature ecosystem, 112 00:08:07.200 --> 00:08:13.580 Relative to some other ecosystems and chains, and that gives for the opportunity to deliver 113 00:08:13.580 --> 00:08:20.220 Something that is a little bit more, how do I put this, a little bit more unique and a 114 00:08:20.220 --> 00:08:26.140 Little bit more nuanced than just simply holding an asset. 115 00:08:26.140 --> 00:08:30.580 You just see what the best in class team is doing on Solana with Solana. 116 00:08:30.580 --> 00:08:33.000 100%, right, 100%. 117 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:37.660 I think for us, there's this really unique idea, especially on the private investment 118 00:08:37.660 --> 00:08:43.820 Side, right, that at our scale and our size, and with our access, being backed and sponsored 119 00:08:43.900 --> 00:08:51.100 By both Galaxy and Jump, as well as Kyle, who's been very involved from Solana from day one, 120 00:08:51.100 --> 00:08:54.620 We often have the opportunity to be a catalyst for our own investment. 121 00:08:54.620 --> 00:09:00.220 So you know, OnRe is the example that we frequently use, but when we invested OnRe, 122 00:09:00.220 --> 00:09:05.420 I think their TVL was maybe in the low 100 million. 123 00:09:05.420 --> 00:09:10.660 After our investment, their TVL grew more than two million, right, and so you can see 124 00:09:10.660 --> 00:09:17.620 That for Forward, we both made the private investment as well as the LP deployment, right, as an allocator, 125 00:09:17.620 --> 00:09:22.260 And that in and of itself can drive value to our investments while also driving value 126 00:09:22.260 --> 00:09:24.740 For the protocol and for Solana. 127 00:09:24.740 --> 00:09:33.060 And so for investors, when you think about total yield, for investors, when we think about 128 00:09:34.020 --> 00:09:39.700 This idea of total yield, when you think about what you're getting back and holding the shares, 129 00:09:41.220 --> 00:09:45.380 To be holding shares in a company that is making these investments, but also 130 00:09:45.940 --> 00:09:50.500 Having levers to pull to impact these investments, I think is a really interesting and valuable 131 00:09:50.500 --> 00:09:55.620 Proposition. Yeah, you guys do have a lot of SOL to make those impactful decisions. 132 00:09:55.620 --> 00:09:58.980 We do have a lot of SOL, but that is very true. We have a lot of SOL. 133 00:09:58.980 --> 00:10:03.220 So I would say we operate pretty similarly. We knew from the beginning that being a passive 134 00:10:03.220 --> 00:10:07.700 Vehicle for any ecosystem is not really additive. So as I mentioned previously, 135 00:10:07.860 --> 00:10:13.700 HYPE has a lot of utility within the HYPE ecosystem. So currently to date, we've diversified across 136 00:10:13.700 --> 00:10:18.180 Five different business lines, which covers validator operations, DeFi monetization, 137 00:10:18.180 --> 00:10:21.540 Which encompasses the HYPE Asset Use Service and being able to deploy HYPE directly to 138 00:10:22.180 --> 00:10:26.180 Teams that are building on the ecosystem, such as Entropy and Skew, which covers HIP-3 and HIP-4. 139 00:10:26.980 --> 00:10:32.020 We earn ecosystem rewards. So similarly, being able to invest or participate in building 140 00:10:32.020 --> 00:10:35.380 Institutional products with our partners, not only getting a share of the revenue, 141 00:10:35.380 --> 00:10:40.740 But having equity and or token upside to their growth over time. We think it's substantially 142 00:10:40.740 --> 00:10:44.180 More important in the Hyperliquid ecosystem because a lot of these projects are much more 143 00:10:44.180 --> 00:10:50.100 Nascent or earlier. We've seen the trend again and again, where the lead token continues to accelerate. 144 00:10:50.100 --> 00:10:54.340 People get more attention on the ecosystem and those ecosystem projects also move as 145 00:10:54.340 --> 00:10:58.340 Kind of like beta to the leader. We also have yield enhancement strategies, 146 00:10:58.340 --> 00:11:02.180 Which covers volatility on the base asset in addition to other assets that we hold. 147 00:11:02.180 --> 00:11:06.020 And we're able to use that in tandem with partner protocols like Rysk or HyperLend. 148 00:11:06.020 --> 00:11:09.540 So being able to take collateral, potentially borrow or lend against it, 149 00:11:09.540 --> 00:11:14.420 Use those assets and generate yields. So kind of building a carry trade into the DeFi system 150 00:11:14.420 --> 00:11:18.820 On Hyperliquid. And of course, the portability between Hypercore and HyperEVM means that 151 00:11:18.820 --> 00:11:22.020 All these assets are able to move across seamlessly. So being able to support the 152 00:11:22.020 --> 00:11:25.780 Perps, the binary and scalar markets in addition to institutional credit, 153 00:11:25.780 --> 00:11:29.860 Vault strategies, private trading, RFQ, is something that we see as a very cohesive 154 00:11:29.860 --> 00:11:34.580 Financial system. And Hyperliquid has kind of evolved from being like an app chain for finance 155 00:11:35.300 --> 00:11:39.460 And also being a mechanism for financial infrastructure that can be distributed 156 00:11:39.460 --> 00:11:44.420 Through front ends like Phantom and MetaMask and so forth. So we think that the trend will 157 00:11:44.420 --> 00:11:48.500 Continue to accelerate with like major exchanges such as [unclear] and Kraken getting involved. 158 00:11:48.500 --> 00:11:51.780 And Hyperion's role is to continue to build products and services that can 159 00:11:51.780 --> 00:11:56.420 Aid and actually accelerate these use cases as they move more into the new world. 160 00:11:56.420 --> 00:12:02.820 Amazing. Yeah, I think these utility revenue all super important. But in the end, 161 00:12:02.820 --> 00:12:08.580 What's the most important thing is the price of the token. We don't want to speculate on 162 00:12:08.580 --> 00:12:14.420 The price too much, but I think given the trends this year so far, HYPE has been 163 00:12:14.420 --> 00:12:20.580 The talk of the town, the blue chip to invest in hitting over $90. Also getting mentioned by Trump 164 00:12:20.580 --> 00:12:30.580 As well, which is an interesting feat. That said, I think the market is efficient and we will 165 00:12:30.580 --> 00:12:37.780 Continue to see how the markets develop. I wanted to see your take on will HYPE ever flip 166 00:12:37.780 --> 00:12:48.100 SOL or which coin will outperform in the coming few years? Yeah, sure. I think obviously anything 167 00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:55.380 Is possible. The list of top 10 or top 20 tokens has changed every cycle. But you still see some 168 00:12:55.380 --> 00:13:00.420 Tokens that despite not having so much utility or users or fee generation, there's a lot of 169 00:13:00.420 --> 00:13:06.260 Mispricing that I think still exist. Hyperliquid in both its own benefit and potentially its own 170 00:13:08.020 --> 00:13:12.820 Headwind is that because it generates real revenue, you can do a discounted cash flow model 171 00:13:12.820 --> 00:13:18.580 And say this is the fair value of the token just based on the amount of revenue that it generates. 172 00:13:18.580 --> 00:13:22.660 On the other side of that, I think that there are still a lot of meaningful catalysts such as 173 00:13:23.700 --> 00:13:29.460 The expansion of HYPE 4. Does it deserve to add the value of Polymarket or Kalshi to its 174 00:13:29.460 --> 00:13:34.500 Existing market cap? Further integrations on the institutional side, then obviously being able to 175 00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:39.700 Enter the US market and what does that mean for real like RIAs or other kind of pension funds, 176 00:13:39.860 --> 00:13:45.700 Firms that require regulatory clarity to participate in Hyperliquid and what does that value addition 177 00:13:45.700 --> 00:13:51.300 Mean to the value of the token? We look at those components and then on the other side of that, 178 00:13:51.300 --> 00:13:56.820 You just have unique mechanisms underlying the HYPE token. Net today, it is deflationary. I 179 00:13:56.820 --> 00:14:01.380 Think it's one of the few deflationary Layer 1 blockchain tokens. In addition to that, 180 00:14:01.380 --> 00:14:08.260 The buyback mechanism, the existence of other DATs, ETFs, and those kind of flows as Hyperliquid 181 00:14:08.260 --> 00:14:12.820 Is still relatively unknown outside of crypto from the conversations that we've been having. 182 00:14:12.820 --> 00:14:17.460 I think that there is always a moment where if we are heading into a bull market and there is 183 00:14:18.260 --> 00:14:23.300 Animal spirits and there's only so much capital that can go to few tokens that are understood 184 00:14:23.300 --> 00:14:28.340 And generate revenue and call it legitimately able to continue to grow and expand into 185 00:14:29.380 --> 00:14:33.300 Incumbent financial markets, we think that there's still a lot of upside remaining. 186 00:14:33.300 --> 00:14:42.580 I mean you have to say that. From our view, yeah, I would say so. I think it can even be 187 00:14:42.580 --> 00:14:50.260 On track to getting close to where ETFs value as well. Is Tommy watching? 188 00:14:53.060 --> 00:14:58.100 Yeah, so I think that you bring some really fantastic points and I think this idea of 189 00:14:58.660 --> 00:15:02.740 Revenue generation being able to run a DCF and having people understand 190 00:15:02.740 --> 00:15:06.580 How things can be valued is both a tailwind as well as something that could be a headwind. 191 00:15:08.420 --> 00:15:13.380 For us, we ultimately think that all this extremely early innings and then to his point, 192 00:15:13.380 --> 00:15:18.260 He said that in a bull market, you see a lot of things that are mispriced, 193 00:15:18.260 --> 00:15:23.460 Rationally priced, temporarily rationally priced. I mean, we saw XRP flip a bunch of 194 00:15:23.460 --> 00:15:28.740 Things late last cycle as well. And so I think the most important thing that we think about is 195 00:15:29.380 --> 00:15:35.300 Solana as an asset from a price perspective and as I said, has demonstrated a true level. 196 00:15:36.100 --> 00:15:42.820 We've seen Solana make new highs and then make some serious lows between cycles and then come 197 00:15:42.820 --> 00:15:48.420 Back and retest highs. And this cyclical nature of price and being able to survive through that 198 00:15:48.980 --> 00:15:55.700 A couple of times allows for the holder base to grow stronger, creates better market structure 199 00:15:55.700 --> 00:16:01.460 And ultimately means that other players can feel a little more comfortable coming into this market. 200 00:16:02.500 --> 00:16:08.660 I think if we think through early L1 cycle, ETH killers, right, professor coins, 201 00:16:08.660 --> 00:16:15.300 You guys remember that, we saw a lot of tokens only for their first cycle in their first year. 202 00:16:16.340 --> 00:16:19.460 And this is not me, I don't have a crystal ball, right? I'm certainly not saying anything about 203 00:16:19.460 --> 00:16:27.700 High, but look, new tokens are kind of the whole tokens tend to go up. And I think that 204 00:16:29.140 --> 00:16:34.980 These positive feedback loops in a more challenging market can rapidly turn into 205 00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:39.460 Negative feedback loops, right? When you have a lot of concentration holders, when you have a lot of 206 00:16:39.460 --> 00:16:44.420 Whales, early insiders, there has not been meaningful distribution and reaccumulation cycles, 207 00:16:44.980 --> 00:16:53.460 Price can be very volatile, right? And so I think we may see near term dislocation, 208 00:16:54.260 --> 00:17:00.020 A near term, the rational relative pricing on what these assets represent. 209 00:17:00.660 --> 00:17:07.300 For us, we think that long term, SOL well, that the reality is that if we look at the trajectory of 210 00:17:07.300 --> 00:17:12.100 Sold today, obviously it's much more difficult to run like a DCF on SOL because it touches so many 211 00:17:12.100 --> 00:17:17.860 Different things, right? But I think for us, we actually see a lot more torque because Solana 212 00:17:17.860 --> 00:17:22.900 Today supports a lot of different things. And we are seeing on-chain trading from retail. 213 00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:28.180 When people think crypto, your average person thinks crypto, they think Solana. 214 00:17:28.180 --> 00:17:31.780 You go on the street and you ask someone what crypto they've heard of and it's Bitcoin. 215 00:17:35.620 --> 00:17:40.580 Solana is also moving forward in the RWA space. Solana is moving forward in the institutional 216 00:17:40.580 --> 00:17:47.620 Space. There's a lot of work on on-chain AI, right? A lot of these different portions of Solana are 217 00:17:47.620 --> 00:17:52.660 Nascent for growing. And I think even if you're doing a naive sum of parts and thinking all the 218 00:17:52.660 --> 00:17:56.980 Different things that could happen in that ecosystem, it gives us a lot of confidence 219 00:17:56.980 --> 00:18:04.340 And conviction that Solana will outperform in long-term something that is heavily, heavily focused 220 00:18:04.340 --> 00:18:13.460 On institutional trading. Hyperliquid is just likely not sure as much value as what Solana can offer. 221 00:18:14.580 --> 00:18:20.740 I'd have to say, I think Samsung just announced Solana integration to support USDC payments, 222 00:18:20.740 --> 00:18:26.740 Which is very, very impressive. Yeah, congratulations on that. I think that is an example of retail 223 00:18:26.740 --> 00:18:32.260 Adoption through institutions, of course. But yeah, we'll see who gets to Apple Pay first. 224 00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:40.820 Hi, this is a bit of an aside, but I think broadly speaking, when you look at crypto overall, 225 00:18:40.820 --> 00:18:46.500 Something that people should be looking for more often is whether or not an ecosystem or a protocol 226 00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:53.060 Or the combination of the two is actually bringing marginal stables on-chain that would 227 00:18:53.060 --> 00:19:00.740 Have otherwise never had been on-chain. So when I think about Hyperliquid today, 228 00:19:00.740 --> 00:19:05.300 Obviously there's this really large institutional push, but the question that I always have is, 229 00:19:05.300 --> 00:19:10.020 Are we share shifting from finance? Is Hyperliquid just shifting from finance? And for good 230 00:19:10.020 --> 00:19:13.300 Reason, plenty of fantastic reasons why Hyperliquid should be share shifting from finance 231 00:19:13.300 --> 00:19:18.740 And Coinbases of the world. But these are dollars that were already destined to make it 232 00:19:18.740 --> 00:19:23.380 Into crypto. We're certainly moving them to a better experience and a better product, 233 00:19:23.380 --> 00:19:27.380 In my opinion. But this is money that was already going to get to crypto. 234 00:19:28.100 --> 00:19:34.740 When I think about Solana, and I think about these tokenized RWAs, and I think about some 235 00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:39.860 Of these other protocols are being built, these are marginal stables that would not have ended up 236 00:19:39.860 --> 00:19:45.940 In crypto. Because tokenized RWAs, for example, reinsurance. This is hundreds of millions of 237 00:19:45.940 --> 00:19:50.020 Dollars, billions of dollars in the traditional reinsurance industry that would have ended up 238 00:19:50.020 --> 00:19:55.940 In a traditional reinsure. And so when these assets get packaged in tokenized Solana, 239 00:19:55.940 --> 00:19:59.620 You're bringing marginal stables on chain. The partnership with Samsung is the same 240 00:19:59.620 --> 00:20:05.780 Thing. These are dollars that would have ended up in mobile wallets or FinTech products 241 00:20:05.780 --> 00:20:10.340 That are on option. And so by doing these partnerships like what Solana announced with 242 00:20:10.340 --> 00:20:17.700 Samsung, you're bringing the marginal dollars for our marginal users that are truly incremental. 243 00:20:17.700 --> 00:20:22.420 And whether that is a nascent amount today or something, again, like on read, that's more 244 00:20:22.420 --> 00:20:26.260 Than hundreds of millions of dollars. It's really that incremental dollar that is super 245 00:20:26.260 --> 00:20:30.580 Important, especially when we're thinking about long term value capture and where the terminal 246 00:20:30.580 --> 00:20:35.380 Value of these ecosystems came from. My counter to that would be even if more 247 00:20:35.380 --> 00:20:40.020 Dollars are brought on certain chains, it doesn't necessarily equate to, it could result 248 00:20:40.020 --> 00:20:44.420 In more activity, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the fees themselves are inherently 249 00:20:45.540 --> 00:20:50.100 Profitable or the values return to the base token. I think it's quite similar to Ethereum 250 00:20:50.100 --> 00:20:55.700 And the Layer 2s where Layer 2s like Arbitrum are being used for use cases like Hyperliquid 251 00:20:55.700 --> 00:21:01.620 And Robinhood, but the value capture has actually gone more to ARB than to Ethereum Layer 1. 252 00:21:01.620 --> 00:21:07.780 And so I think that for Hyperliquid, the more USDC that's actually available as TVL, 253 00:21:07.780 --> 00:21:12.500 90% of that interest revenue that's generated that would go to Circle or Coinbase is actually 254 00:21:12.500 --> 00:21:16.020 Returning to the assistance fund and going towards buybacks. And so that's another mechanism 255 00:21:16.020 --> 00:21:22.580 That where you can see the direct impact of TVL or use cases accelerating the buyback. 256 00:21:22.580 --> 00:21:27.060 And I think that narrative flywheel of, oh, this token is just continues to grind up over time 257 00:21:27.060 --> 00:21:31.140 And more eyes are on it. And they say, oh, we need to buy this. We want to launch perp markets. 258 00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:35.140 We want to reduce our trading fees. We want to use collateral. That also creates that natural 259 00:21:35.140 --> 00:21:39.860 Demand for the HYPE token. The other part of it that I thought was interesting to your point is 260 00:21:39.860 --> 00:21:44.580 Solana as a general purpose blockchain, I think is very valuable because it has diversified across 261 00:21:44.580 --> 00:21:48.660 Numerous use cases, right, agentic trading, RWAs, institutional and retail push. 262 00:21:49.300 --> 00:21:56.900 But I've also seen like, Pump.fun is probably like the story of the year, right? As an application 263 00:21:56.900 --> 00:22:02.340 Has captured more of the value of a lot of users and trading activity on Solana than the 264 00:22:02.340 --> 00:22:07.940 Sol token itself. As I think for Hyperliquid, as mentioned previously, all of that activity 265 00:22:07.940 --> 00:22:12.740 Kind of really focuses back and returns to HYPE. I think that differentiated flow of value 266 00:22:12.740 --> 00:22:18.260 Capture is what makes Hyperliquid really exciting and potentially a competitor to flipping Solana. 267 00:22:18.260 --> 00:22:24.260 I think you're making great points, right? I think this idea that the base token for HYPE, 268 00:22:24.260 --> 00:22:28.660 Sort of the destination for a lot of the value that's been created today is truly a tailwind. 269 00:22:28.660 --> 00:22:32.100 And I think that one of the reasons why HYPE has done so well as asset 270 00:22:33.860 --> 00:22:40.340 And has actually displayed a level of dislocation from crypto overall lately, right, is because of 271 00:22:40.340 --> 00:22:46.020 This value accrual narrative that's very easy to understand for revenue better. I think for those 272 00:22:46.020 --> 00:22:52.740 Of us that have been crypto for a while, right, we've seen the buyback met up before. And I'm 273 00:22:52.740 --> 00:22:58.660 Certainly not saying that it couldn't change. And certainly HYPE has much more durable revenue 274 00:22:58.660 --> 00:23:07.780 Than a lot of verticals. But I think we know that at $90 billion today in terms of market gap, 275 00:23:07.780 --> 00:23:12.740 That it's probably not the buybacks that are supporting this, right? And I also think it, 276 00:23:12.740 --> 00:23:18.660 Off the top of my head, I'm sure the HYPE at current fee generation run rate, the inflation is 277 00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:24.740 Actually more, there's net issuance, I think, on high relative buybacks. It's very close, 278 00:23:24.740 --> 00:23:29.700 Either a wash or just some net inflation. But anyway, you look at Solana as well, right? Solana 279 00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:36.180 Has for a very long time, like inflation on Solana, the economic policy of the token, 280 00:23:36.500 --> 00:23:41.380 Has been highly debated. It's one of the reasons why they want to accelerate the disinflation rate. 281 00:23:42.500 --> 00:23:46.420 But despite the disinflation rate, you could still see positive trending price. So again, 282 00:23:46.420 --> 00:23:52.660 I kind of go back to revenue is so important. At some point, we have to think about these 283 00:23:52.660 --> 00:23:56.660 Ecosystems, these technologies, these assets as being productive and measuring them on the revenue 284 00:23:56.660 --> 00:24:02.580 That they can generate. But in terms of price, especially short to medium term, I think that 285 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:10.320 No conclusion that one token will outperform the other on the basis of value accrual from revenue 286 00:24:10.320 --> 00:24:17.440 Alone is, I think just doesn't really, it is part of the narrative, that narrative might drive 287 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:21.840 Incremental or marginal buying behavior, which then might create this self-perpetuating loop 288 00:24:21.840 --> 00:24:26.640 That then leads to that token outperforming. But I think functionally, that's not the reason why 289 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:31.520 The token outperformed. You brought up a really great point on protocol versus 290 00:24:31.520 --> 00:24:38.240 A player value pool, because you have these really large tokens like PUMP that have existed 291 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:46.000 On Solana. And ultimately, the way that I think about this is, think about the value of a market 292 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:51.840 Overall. You think about the US stock market as an example. The US stock market is the largest in 293 00:24:51.840 --> 00:24:56.080 The world because we've created a bunch of different companies in the United States that 294 00:24:56.080 --> 00:25:00.480 Are all extremely valuable and extremely productive. And I think that it is probably 295 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:05.840 A more bullish signal that Solana is able to spawn and support applications like Pump.fun that 296 00:25:05.840 --> 00:25:11.840 Can have multiple billions of dollars in terms of fully diluted market cap. That's probably more 297 00:25:11.840 --> 00:25:16.720 Bullish for Solana price than it is bearish. Although I know a lot of people say, well, 298 00:25:17.520 --> 00:25:21.120 If marginal dollars are flowing in a PUMP, are those marginal dollars flowing in a Solana? 299 00:25:22.080 --> 00:25:27.600 And I think in a vacuum, especially in today's more nascent market, 300 00:25:28.080 --> 00:25:33.040 That argument holds water. But I think ultimately, we're chasing something that is significantly 301 00:25:33.040 --> 00:25:39.040 Larger. And everything that we're doing today is actually trying to attract a lot of capital that 302 00:25:39.040 --> 00:25:44.400 Is not in crypto today. I think the reality is crypto is still just such a tiny, tiny market 303 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:51.280 Compared to other asset classes. And so it really comes back to looking at today's relative price 304 00:25:51.280 --> 00:25:55.360 Action value pool is not a good prediction for where things are going in the future. 305 00:25:55.520 --> 00:26:00.240 I think if people are really thinking about what asset is going to be priced higher in the future, 306 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:08.400 Certainly there are sort of this long-term consideration of inflation that people think 307 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:14.320 About. Because if you're looking at a 10-year basis, how much issue went to there over 10 years? 308 00:26:15.040 --> 00:26:21.040 But what's much more important is if 10 times more money was to come into the industry, 309 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:26.000 Where is that money most likely to flow? And that's the best way to answer the question of 310 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:31.280 Which assets can outperform it. Because Solana, again, supports such a broad, diverse set of use 311 00:26:31.280 --> 00:26:37.040 Cases, we believe that it's much more likely that Solana captures the site. 312 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:45.040 Of course. I've been in the trenches in DeFi for quite a long time. And Solana's ecosystem 313 00:26:45.600 --> 00:26:51.920 Playing with it for the first time back in 21-22 was really exciting. Speed, the ability to really 314 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:58.320 Be able to transact fast, very cheaply, change the game for participation in DeFi. And obviously, 315 00:26:58.320 --> 00:27:03.920 You had the real first Bitcoin season on Solana, and then you'd be able to use applications like 316 00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:10.640 Jito, Jupiter, how they rewarded early users as well, creating these economic incentives to return 317 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:14.320 Back to the chain. And to your point, what I think was really, really impressive was 318 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:20.720 During FTX and Solana, everyone was like, this is really dead. It was hard seeing Solana go from 319 00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:27.840 Like 200 plus back down to eight, and seeing it get all the way back to all-time highs. So I think 320 00:27:27.840 --> 00:27:32.000 That is a testament to the nature of the builders on Solana, those that have been committed for a 321 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:36.720 Long time, the global user base. I really do think it is incredibly admirable what has been built 322 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:41.600 In terms of all the layer ones and layer twos that exist in the space. At the same time, 323 00:27:41.600 --> 00:27:47.120 I do think that there is a need for applications or blockchains that are highly specialized. And I 324 00:27:47.120 --> 00:27:51.200 Think that was what personally made me move towards the Hyperliquid ecosystem after being 325 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:56.080 In the space for a long time. And really, the focus on value accrual and infrastructure that can, 326 00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:00.480 As we like to say, like the DeFi molded, right? People don't even know that they're using 327 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:05.680 Blockchain. So I think that abstraction being solved for is also quite valuable. But overall, 328 00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:10.720 We're really excited to see that the reality is that we are still very early in what all of 329 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:18.080 These networks will become in the far future. For us, I think the elephant in the room that 330 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:23.760 We as the Solana ecosystem have had to address is really this evidence that Solana missed the boat 331 00:28:23.760 --> 00:28:29.760 On. That's just the truth. And I think that obviously there are teams that are trying to 332 00:28:29.760 --> 00:28:35.280 Address this. You have Backpack, Sunrise, Phoenix, a lot of really fantastic companies 333 00:28:35.280 --> 00:28:39.440 That are trying to tackle this in different ways together. I think there's a new wave of 334 00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:44.800 Launching equities that really could usher in a lot of new activity initiatives, as we've seen. 335 00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:53.280 But the other thing that I think is really admirable of Hyperliquid system is truly their 336 00:28:53.280 --> 00:28:58.240 Speed. I think that there's an element of this, which is small teams and bear teams. 337 00:28:58.800 --> 00:29:04.800 Decentralization in terms of a protocol is something that we're all striving for in this 338 00:29:04.800 --> 00:29:12.720 Industry. But decentralized development and operation of a company is inherently slow. 339 00:29:13.360 --> 00:29:17.280 I think one thing that Hyperliquid has done really fantastically well is their ability to 340 00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:23.680 See a demand in the market of that team, which is small, tight-knit, to execute and create 341 00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:32.560 Something. We think about development of, one, the perps product to the execution of launching 342 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:39.200 New perps. Silver and crude specifically really captured a lot of attention there because 343 00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:43.840 They were able to move very quickly. Whereas on Solana, you have a lot of teams that came up at 344 00:29:43.840 --> 00:29:47.920 The same time to try to create a competitive perps product. I think we've seen it. 345 00:29:50.320 --> 00:29:54.320 Jito has one. There's a number of different perp indexes that are experienced on the day. 346 00:29:55.200 --> 00:30:01.280 I think this decentralized approach, multiple teams approach theoretically can end up creating a much 347 00:30:01.280 --> 00:30:06.000 Better product because competitiveness breeds innovation. But it also means things are moving 348 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:11.280 More slowly. I think that's something that Solana Ecosystem is going to have to think about on 349 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:15.680 What priorities make sense for there to be a lot of collaboration between teams 350 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:20.800 And what things are a much better approach from a more decentralized type of angle. 351 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:28.480 I will say those. I think ultimately in terms of value capture, it's a double-edged sword. If 352 00:30:28.560 --> 00:30:33.600 You're a small team and things are built relatively centralized like Hyperliquid, 353 00:30:33.600 --> 00:30:40.720 The value accrues back towards the core team versus the ecosystem. It's a fine balance. 354 00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:46.160 At some point, if the core protocol is so large and so incumbent and so good at building things, 355 00:30:46.800 --> 00:30:53.920 The HyperEVM is going to struggle to become really robust. Because if you're a builder, 356 00:30:54.880 --> 00:31:03.620 You know that when you build, you're competing. On Solana, the ecosystem again is really robust 357 00:31:03.620 --> 00:31:09.460 And really diversified. There are a lot of people building on Solana's foundation and labs. It's a 358 00:31:09.460 --> 00:31:14.580 Huge company spanning hundreds of countries and tens of thousands of builders and users that 359 00:31:14.580 --> 00:31:18.660 Often don't even know what each other are doing. There's a lot of localized markets and localize 360 00:31:18.660 --> 00:31:24.900 Innovation. I think that again, we go back to this idea of in 10 years, what ecosystem is 361 00:31:24.900 --> 00:31:30.260 Best positioned to capture the bulk of the marginal dollars that we all believe are going 362 00:31:30.260 --> 00:31:34.580 To flow in. I think the larger your net, the more likely it is going to catch a big push. 363 00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:44.120 I have to agree with everything you guys both said, but I do especially agree with that we are 364 00:31:44.120 --> 00:31:49.720 Early. We are all early. I'm a believer that all boats rise with the tide and excited to see 365 00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:54.680 What type of growth that we achieve in the coming few years altogether. Thank you so much 366 00:31:54.680 --> 00:32:03.640 For joining us. It was amazing having you today. It's a wrap up of Token2049 with these 367 00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:05.240 Beautiful debates. Thank you.