WEBVTT NOTE Open Interest — jai-prasad-definitive. Draft: automatic transcript (faster-whisper small.en) of the released edit, automatic speaker assignment (resemblyzer, 2 speakers), corrections applied from the editorial glossary and OCR of the burned-in captions. Not yet reviewed line by line. 1 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:05.400 Welcome back to the content suite provided by Kraken and Codex. 2 00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:07.400 Today we have Jai from Definitive. 3 00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:10.400 Jai, before we get into what Definitive was working on, 4 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:12.400 Please give a little introduction of yourself. 5 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:13.400 Yeah, super pumped to be here. 6 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:16.400 Thanks for having me in lovely Singapore. 7 00:00:16.400 --> 00:00:22.400 So background, crypto OG, been in the space for eight years now. 8 00:00:22.400 --> 00:00:26.400 Originally started one of the first on-chain data companies 9 00:00:26.400 --> 00:00:29.400 Back in 2018 called TokenAnalyst. 10 00:00:29.400 --> 00:00:33.400 Built and grew that and eventually sold that to Coinbase. 11 00:00:33.400 --> 00:00:38.400 I worked on Coinbase for a few years, leading everything 12 00:00:38.400 --> 00:00:43.400 From DeFi to staking to launching chains like Solana 13 00:00:43.400 --> 00:00:45.400 Near on Coinbase. 14 00:00:45.400 --> 00:00:49.400 Been in this space for a while and then was really early 15 00:00:49.400 --> 00:00:51.400 Into the DeFi space and always been trading. 16 00:00:51.400 --> 00:00:55.400 And so eventually teamed up with some folks I met there 17 00:00:55.400 --> 00:00:58.400 And started Definitive, which is basically 18 00:00:58.400 --> 00:00:59.400 On-chain trading terminal. 19 00:00:59.400 --> 00:01:00.400 Nice. 20 00:01:00.400 --> 00:01:03.400 I mean, with the background in centralized trading getting 21 00:01:03.400 --> 00:01:06.400 Acquired by Coinbase, what about Definitive 22 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:08.400 Or what was the real problem that you wanted to solve 23 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:09.400 With Definitive? 24 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:10.400 Yeah, good question. 25 00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:16.400 So back in basically 2021, 2022, myself and my co-founders 26 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:18.400 Were actually trading a lot on-chain. 27 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:24.400 My co-founder was also managing at a hedge fund on-chain 28 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:28.400 And we basically saw what we'd built in CeFi. 29 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:32.400 We built Coinbase Prime for institutions like BlackRock 30 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:36.400 And Elon Musk and we saw their problems and we realized 31 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:39.400 If the same institutions wanted to get on-chain, 32 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:42.400 There's just a lack of infrastructure for them. 33 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:46.400 So that was the idea, the initial idea that sparked Definitive. 34 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:47.400 Nice. 35 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:50.400 And when did you guys start Definitive? 36 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:54.400 We actually left our jobs right after FTX went down. 37 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:55.400 It was a crazy time. 38 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:57.400 It was quite contrarian then. 39 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:00.400 And so it's probably like we initially started in 2022. 40 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:05.400 We did a few different things before we got to where it is today. 41 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:08.400 But yeah, it's been a crazy, fun journey. 42 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:10.400 Tell me about the story of where you guys 43 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:13.400 Thought Definitive would be post-FTX crash 44 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:16.400 To where you think the market has turned now. 45 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:20.400 Yeah, so post-FTX crash, 46 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:24.400 We were really focused on on-chain risk management 47 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:27.400 Because that's what we thought institutions wanted. 48 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.400 So we built a lot of infrastructure to access DeFi 49 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:35.400 But in a risk-controlled way. 50 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:37.400 We initially started with a vaults product. 51 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:40.400 We offered a bunch of yield strategies, et cetera. 52 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:44.400 But over time, it turned out that the on-chain markets 53 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:47.400 Became more retail-focused, actually. 54 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:51.400 The institutions ended up going to the ETFs 55 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:53.400 Or just stayed in CeFi buying Bitcoin 56 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:55.400 And didn't really play on-chain. 57 00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:58.400 And so the market kind of moved from insto to retail. 58 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:00.400 And so we've also adapted along the way. 59 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:03.400 And our product, which was very insto focused, 60 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:06.400 B2B sales, et cetera, is now a trading terminal 61 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:08.400 For everyone and a mobile app for everyone. 62 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:09.400 Right. 63 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.400 And as a retail trader, I think everyone gets 64 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:13.400 With a bunch of opportunities, 65 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:17.400 Whether that's chain-specific fees. 66 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:19.400 How do you guys try to stand out in this market 67 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:21.400 And where do you think the market is headed? 68 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:23.400 Yeah, great question. 69 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:26.400 So I would say the main value prop of Definitive 70 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:28.400 Versus some of the other products 71 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:33.400 Is that we are for traders who like to trade size. 72 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:35.400 So specifically pro traders. 73 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:37.400 And this is because of our background 74 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:39.400 Of building institutional trading. 75 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:42.400 We brought that same rigor on-chain. 76 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:44.400 And so things that we're really, really good at 77 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:48.400 Is we're the only terminal that has advanced order. 78 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:51.400 So we have limits, stop losses, take profits, 79 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:54.400 VWAPs, TWAPs, DCAs on all the chains. 80 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:57.400 So now if you want to buy a million dollars of some coin 81 00:03:57.400 --> 00:03:59.400 And you don't want to move the price, 82 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:01.400 We're the only place to do it. 83 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:05.400 So traders who care a lot about slippage, price impact, 84 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:07.400 Actually getting great value 85 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.400 And precision in their trading use us. 86 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:11.400 Amazing. 87 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:13.400 So if you're trading size and you want the ability 88 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:16.400 To have multiple types of execution, 89 00:04:16.400 --> 00:04:18.400 Seems like the place to go. 90 00:04:18.400 --> 00:04:21.400 Right now, I know you guys have a lot of traders 91 00:04:21.400 --> 00:04:22.400 That have been very loyal 92 00:04:22.400 --> 00:04:25.400 And have made a lot of money on the platform itself as well. 93 00:04:25.400 --> 00:04:27.400 And now with AI trading, 94 00:04:27.400 --> 00:04:29.400 You've mentioned that you guys are working 95 00:04:29.400 --> 00:04:31.400 On new agentic forms of trading. 96 00:04:31.400 --> 00:04:33.400 Where do you see the industry going 97 00:04:33.400 --> 00:04:36.400 In terms of AI and trading on-chain? 98 00:04:36.400 --> 00:04:37.400 Yeah. 99 00:04:37.400 --> 00:04:40.400 The analogy maybe I'll use here is 100 00:04:40.400 --> 00:04:44.400 When the internet became popular, 101 00:04:44.400 --> 00:04:46.400 If your website didn't have 102 00:04:46.400 --> 00:04:48.400 Or if your business didn't have a website, 103 00:04:48.400 --> 00:04:49.400 No one used it. 104 00:04:49.400 --> 00:04:52.400 So I think similar things happening 105 00:04:52.400 --> 00:04:54.400 In the consumer space right now, 106 00:04:54.400 --> 00:04:56.400 There are a lot of agents like Instinct and Muse 107 00:04:56.400 --> 00:04:58.400 That come up and now people are using them 108 00:04:58.400 --> 00:04:59.400 To do day-to-day actions. 109 00:04:59.400 --> 00:05:01.400 I think the next paradigm shift is going to be 110 00:05:01.400 --> 00:05:03.400 In trading and in finance. 111 00:05:03.400 --> 00:05:05.400 It's going to be very intent-driven. 112 00:05:05.400 --> 00:05:08.400 Our deep insight right now is that 113 00:05:08.400 --> 00:05:10.400 While we build a terminal and mobile app, 114 00:05:10.400 --> 00:05:11.400 Which everyone uses, 115 00:05:11.400 --> 00:05:13.400 And that's how we make the majority of our money, 116 00:05:13.400 --> 00:05:15.400 Don't think that will be the case in six months. 117 00:05:15.400 --> 00:05:17.400 It will be fully agentic 118 00:05:17.400 --> 00:05:20.400 And there are all these different agents out there. 119 00:05:20.400 --> 00:05:22.400 Let's say that in this podcast, 120 00:05:22.400 --> 00:05:23.400 I give you some alpha 121 00:05:23.400 --> 00:05:25.400 And you want to buy it right now. 122 00:05:25.400 --> 00:05:27.400 Ideally, you would just go to your agent 123 00:05:27.400 --> 00:05:28.400 And tell it, 124 00:05:28.400 --> 00:05:30.400 Hey, my friend told me about this coin, 125 00:05:30.400 --> 00:05:31.400 Buy it. 126 00:05:31.400 --> 00:05:32.400 We want to solve that buy it part. 127 00:05:32.400 --> 00:05:34.400 So what happens when your agent 128 00:05:34.400 --> 00:05:35.400 Decides to buy something? 129 00:05:35.400 --> 00:05:38.400 How do you buy something in crypto specifically? 130 00:05:38.400 --> 00:05:39.400 How do you get a wallet? 131 00:05:39.400 --> 00:05:40.400 How do you fund it? 132 00:05:40.400 --> 00:05:41.400 How do you have permissions? 133 00:05:41.400 --> 00:05:42.400 And how do you trade? 134 00:05:42.400 --> 00:05:44.400 That's everything that we're solving. 135 00:05:44.400 --> 00:05:47.400 So we're building a brand new product called Flash 136 00:05:47.400 --> 00:05:50.400 That is really focused on building the best-in-class 137 00:05:50.400 --> 00:05:52.400 Infrastructure for agentic trading. 138 00:05:52.400 --> 00:05:54.400 That's really exciting about how things 139 00:05:54.400 --> 00:05:55.400 Are going more agentic. 140 00:05:55.400 --> 00:05:57.400 Let's say at Token2049, 141 00:05:57.400 --> 00:05:59.400 My friend gives me alpha on a chain 142 00:05:59.400 --> 00:06:01.400 That I don't have any ether gas on 143 00:06:01.400 --> 00:06:04.400 And I want to tell my Muse Instinct agent 144 00:06:04.400 --> 00:06:05.400 To buy it. 145 00:06:05.400 --> 00:06:06.400 What would that process look like? 146 00:06:06.400 --> 00:06:07.400 Yeah, great question. 147 00:06:07.400 --> 00:06:10.400 And this is exactly what we're trying to solve. 148 00:06:10.400 --> 00:06:12.400 You would tell your Muse or Instinct agent 149 00:06:12.400 --> 00:06:14.400 To use Definitive to buy this coin. 150 00:06:14.400 --> 00:06:16.400 What happens under the hood is 151 00:06:16.400 --> 00:06:18.400 We would provision a wallet for you. 152 00:06:18.400 --> 00:06:20.400 Hopefully, you have me, 153 00:06:20.400 --> 00:06:23.400 I assume you have Stripe Link hooked up. 154 00:06:23.400 --> 00:06:25.400 The wallet would, you know, 155 00:06:25.400 --> 00:06:27.400 Stripe Link would deposit, 156 00:06:27.400 --> 00:06:29.400 Let's call it 100 USD, 157 00:06:29.400 --> 00:06:30.400 In the wallet. 158 00:06:30.400 --> 00:06:32.400 It doesn't matter what chain. 159 00:06:32.400 --> 00:06:33.400 Under the hood, 160 00:06:33.400 --> 00:06:36.400 Our infrastructure would automatically 161 00:06:36.400 --> 00:06:39.400 Bridge those assets to Robinhood Chain, 162 00:06:39.400 --> 00:06:40.400 Buy the token, 163 00:06:40.400 --> 00:06:41.400 Never have to think about gas, 164 00:06:41.400 --> 00:06:43.400 You never have to sign anything. 165 00:06:43.400 --> 00:06:46.400 And all you would do is have an idea 166 00:06:46.400 --> 00:06:47.400 And everything under the hood 167 00:06:47.400 --> 00:06:49.400 Would just be executed out of the box. 168 00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:50.400 Nice. 169 00:06:50.400 --> 00:06:51.400 Amazing. 170 00:06:51.400 --> 00:06:53.400 For the agentic trading 171 00:06:53.400 --> 00:06:56.400 Or even if you're trading on a terminal itself, 172 00:06:56.400 --> 00:06:58.400 It seems like Definitive is the way to go. 173 00:06:58.400 --> 00:07:00.400 How do you currently, 174 00:07:00.400 --> 00:07:02.400 Or taking a step back, 175 00:07:02.400 --> 00:07:04.400 It's currently the end of, 176 00:07:04.400 --> 00:07:06.400 Almost the end of 2026. 177 00:07:06.400 --> 00:07:07.400 You've been in the industry 178 00:07:07.400 --> 00:07:08.400 For a pretty long time. 179 00:07:08.400 --> 00:07:10.400 How do you feel about the current state of crypto 180 00:07:10.400 --> 00:07:12.400 And where the market is headed? 181 00:07:12.400 --> 00:07:14.400 Yeah, you know, I live in SF 182 00:07:14.400 --> 00:07:16.400 And no one talks about crypto, 183 00:07:16.400 --> 00:07:18.400 So it's a contrarian to be in crypto. 184 00:07:18.400 --> 00:07:21.400 So I think it could not be 185 00:07:21.400 --> 00:07:22.400 A better time to be in crypto. 186 00:07:22.400 --> 00:07:26.400 We're seeing more and more assets come on chain, 187 00:07:27.400 --> 00:07:29.400 Which is really great for us 188 00:07:29.400 --> 00:07:31.400 And a lot of the other projects building here 189 00:07:31.400 --> 00:07:34.400 Where I think the future of trading, 190 00:07:34.400 --> 00:07:36.400 Of finance, of commerce will be on chain. 191 00:07:36.400 --> 00:07:38.400 You've seen the growth with stablecoins, 192 00:07:38.400 --> 00:07:40.400 With tokenized stocks, etc. 193 00:07:40.400 --> 00:07:41.400 And so from our perspective, 194 00:07:41.400 --> 00:07:43.400 We want more tokenization. 195 00:07:43.400 --> 00:07:46.400 More assets means that it's not just a meme coin 196 00:07:46.400 --> 00:07:47.400 Or Robinhood Chain that you can buy. 197 00:07:47.400 --> 00:07:49.400 You can buy Tesla, 198 00:07:49.400 --> 00:07:51.400 Or you can tell your agent that, 199 00:07:51.400 --> 00:07:54.400 Hey, I want to run a basis trade on Tesla 200 00:07:54.400 --> 00:07:55.400 And using our infrastructure, 201 00:07:55.400 --> 00:07:57.400 It would buy Tesla's spot 202 00:07:57.400 --> 00:07:58.400 And short a perp, 203 00:07:58.400 --> 00:07:59.400 And you would earn yield. 204 00:07:59.400 --> 00:08:02.400 So it's just the tip of the iceberg, 205 00:08:02.400 --> 00:08:05.400 And I think on-chain plus AI 206 00:08:05.400 --> 00:08:08.400 Is going to just be crazy in 2027. 207 00:08:08.400 --> 00:08:10.400 So you could effectively run strategies 208 00:08:10.400 --> 00:08:13.400 That you would need a bunch of quants to do 209 00:08:13.400 --> 00:08:14.400 Through an agent, 210 00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:16.400 Which is really exciting. 211 00:08:16.400 --> 00:08:19.400 So I know Definitive launched this token EDGE 212 00:08:19.400 --> 00:08:21.400 In April of 2025. 213 00:08:21.400 --> 00:08:22.400 It's been a little over a year now 214 00:08:22.400 --> 00:08:24.400 Since the token has been live. 215 00:08:24.400 --> 00:08:26.400 Where's the current status of the token, 216 00:08:26.400 --> 00:08:28.400 And where do you see it going from now? 217 00:08:28.400 --> 00:08:29.400 Yeah, great question. 218 00:08:29.400 --> 00:08:32.400 So first, I'll just start with liquidity. 219 00:08:32.400 --> 00:08:35.400 We were day one listed on Coinbase, 220 00:08:35.400 --> 00:08:37.400 And it's on Korean exchanges like Upbit 221 00:08:37.400 --> 00:08:39.400 And other tier one exchanges. 222 00:08:39.400 --> 00:08:41.400 But that's just one side of the coin. 223 00:08:41.400 --> 00:08:44.400 The other side is that it's a first class 224 00:08:44.400 --> 00:08:46.400 Citizen of our product today. 225 00:08:46.400 --> 00:08:49.400 We already have a program 226 00:08:49.400 --> 00:08:52.400 Where we already use 20% of our revenues 227 00:08:52.400 --> 00:08:55.400 To buy back the token and distribute it 228 00:08:55.400 --> 00:08:57.400 And distribute part of that to stakers. 229 00:08:57.400 --> 00:09:00.400 The other sits in treasury and is not in the market. 230 00:09:00.400 --> 00:09:03.400 So our token is already deflationary. 231 00:09:03.400 --> 00:09:07.400 No, we don't use any treasury to incentivize. 232 00:09:07.400 --> 00:09:09.400 Everything is from revenues. 233 00:09:09.400 --> 00:09:11.400 So that's a critical point. 234 00:09:11.400 --> 00:09:13.400 And second is that as we expand 235 00:09:13.400 --> 00:09:15.400 Into the AI trading world, 236 00:09:15.400 --> 00:09:19.400 This token is going to play a big part. 237 00:09:19.400 --> 00:09:23.400 Not exactly sure how that will materialize yet, 238 00:09:23.400 --> 00:09:25.400 But maybe it'll be lower fees 239 00:09:25.400 --> 00:09:27.400 Or maybe it'll be faster trading 240 00:09:27.400 --> 00:09:30.400 Or more advanced strategies for agents who have our token. 241 00:09:30.400 --> 00:09:33.400 So agents will also want to own EDGE. 242 00:09:33.400 --> 00:09:35.400 Nice, very good. 243 00:09:35.400 --> 00:09:39.400 In terms of buybacks and the current status 244 00:09:39.400 --> 00:09:40.400 Of your guys's treasury, 245 00:09:40.400 --> 00:09:43.400 How much in revenue are you guys looking at 246 00:09:43.400 --> 00:09:45.400 For the potential token holder? 247 00:09:45.400 --> 00:09:47.400 Could you break down what revenue 248 00:09:47.400 --> 00:09:48.400 And buybacks look like? 249 00:09:48.400 --> 00:09:49.400 Yeah, sure. 250 00:09:49.400 --> 00:09:52.400 So I don't have the exact numbers of top of my head, 251 00:09:52.400 --> 00:09:59.400 But if I look at the maybe the last 60 days of revenue 252 00:09:59.400 --> 00:10:01.400 And annualize that, 253 00:10:01.400 --> 00:10:05.400 We're at or out between 8 to 10 million in ARR. 254 00:10:05.400 --> 00:10:11.400 And so 20% of that is going directly towards the token. 255 00:10:11.400 --> 00:10:14.400 That's a significant amount of buybacks 256 00:10:14.400 --> 00:10:16.400 For a company in your guys's stage. 257 00:10:17.400 --> 00:10:18.400 Very exciting. 258 00:10:18.400 --> 00:10:22.400 In terms of where you see the rest of the conference going 259 00:10:22.400 --> 00:10:24.400 Or things that you want to share with the audience, 260 00:10:24.400 --> 00:10:26.400 Anything else on your mind, Jai? 261 00:10:26.400 --> 00:10:28.400 You know, just buy the dip. 262 00:10:28.400 --> 00:10:30.400 It'll end at that. 263 00:10:30.400 --> 00:10:31.400 Nice. 264 00:10:31.400 --> 00:10:32.400 Thank you very much, Jai, for your time, 265 00:10:32.400 --> 00:10:34.400 And we are very appreciative of it. 266 00:10:34.400 --> 00:10:35.400 Thank you so much.