WEBVTT NOTE Open Interest — mike-rowe-codex-defined. Draft: automatic transcript (faster-whisper small.en) of the released edit, automatic speaker assignment (resemblyzer, 2 speakers), corrections applied from the editorial glossary and OCR of the burned-in captions. Not yet reviewed line by line. 1 00:00:00.430 --> 00:00:03.910 Welcome back to the Content Suite in Singapore. 2 00:00:04.450 --> 00:00:07.590 Today, we have Mike from Codex and Defined. 3 00:00:08.130 --> 00:00:10.550 Codex and Defined is one of the biggest data providers 4 00:00:10.550 --> 00:00:13.610 In crypto, and Mike is CEO and co-founder. 5 00:00:14.010 --> 00:00:15.910 Today, we're gonna be learning more about the business 6 00:00:15.910 --> 00:00:17.490 As well as what they do. 7 00:00:17.830 --> 00:00:19.310 So Mike, if you wanna give a quick introduction 8 00:00:19.310 --> 00:00:21.130 About yourself and Codex, that'd be amazing. 9 00:00:21.770 --> 00:00:22.130 Yeah, sure. 10 00:00:22.850 --> 00:00:24.690 I started off as a degen, 11 00:00:24.750 --> 00:00:26.650 Just like a lot of other founders in the space. 12 00:00:27.270 --> 00:00:29.950 So I was sniping coins before it was called sniping 13 00:00:29.950 --> 00:00:34.490 Back in like 2020, 2021, doing a lot of on-chain stuff 14 00:00:34.490 --> 00:00:37.770 And really wanted to build something 15 00:00:37.770 --> 00:00:42.410 That gave me an edge on that. 16 00:00:42.770 --> 00:00:47.070 And eventually that turned into us growing to a business 17 00:00:47.070 --> 00:00:49.090 That's like the size of 20 people now 18 00:00:49.090 --> 00:00:51.210 And I don't trade at all anymore. 19 00:00:51.390 --> 00:00:54.050 So it was kind of backwards from how I intended it 20 00:00:54.050 --> 00:00:56.970 To pan out, but yeah. 21 00:00:56.970 --> 00:01:00.470 So now with Codex, that's our main business. 22 00:01:01.590 --> 00:01:04.550 We powered charts and pricing information, 23 00:01:05.110 --> 00:01:07.150 Wallet data, metadata, 24 00:01:07.890 --> 00:01:12.230 And hundreds of other data points and endpoints 25 00:01:12.230 --> 00:01:14.270 And anything that you can think of for companies 26 00:01:14.270 --> 00:01:19.390 Like Coinbase, FOMO, Pump.fun, MetaMask, Phantom, 27 00:01:20.130 --> 00:01:23.850 RickBot and Phanes, the list goes on and on. 28 00:01:24.310 --> 00:01:26.430 Pretty much if you see a chart 29 00:01:26.430 --> 00:01:28.910 Or a price on the internet, 30 00:01:29.590 --> 00:01:32.270 It's more likely that it's coming from us right now. 31 00:01:32.590 --> 00:01:34.510 So it's been a long journey. 32 00:01:34.670 --> 00:01:36.110 We've been building it for five years now 33 00:01:36.110 --> 00:01:38.890 And this year has been great for it. 34 00:01:39.190 --> 00:01:39.530 That's great. 35 00:01:40.070 --> 00:01:42.470 So if TradingView and majority of the charts 36 00:01:42.470 --> 00:01:44.510 That you see today are powered by Codex, 37 00:01:44.850 --> 00:01:46.490 I think that gives you the opportunity 38 00:01:46.490 --> 00:01:48.350 To build a consumer product, 39 00:01:48.430 --> 00:01:51.350 Maybe for a previous degen version of yourself now. 40 00:01:51.790 --> 00:01:54.050 And I think that's what you're doing today with Defined. 41 00:01:54.350 --> 00:01:55.290 Do you wanna speak a little bit more 42 00:01:55.290 --> 00:01:56.930 About the journey of Defined 43 00:01:56.930 --> 00:01:58.710 As you guys have built out Codex 44 00:01:58.710 --> 00:02:00.550 And what you want that to be in the future? 45 00:02:01.170 --> 00:02:04.550 Yeah, Defined was actually a product before we had the API. 46 00:02:04.850 --> 00:02:07.510 So it was what we launched back in May, 2021 47 00:02:08.730 --> 00:02:11.890 As really like an alternative to DEXTools back then. 48 00:02:12.930 --> 00:02:16.890 And we ended up switching more to a B2B model 49 00:02:16.890 --> 00:02:18.110 And selling the data 50 00:02:18.110 --> 00:02:19.490 Because we just couldn't find a good way 51 00:02:19.490 --> 00:02:20.990 To monetize Defined at the time, 52 00:02:21.290 --> 00:02:22.910 Which ended up saving our business. 53 00:02:22.910 --> 00:02:26.690 And we've done a lot better on that side of things 54 00:02:26.690 --> 00:02:27.510 Ever since then. 55 00:02:27.930 --> 00:02:31.430 But yeah, Defined for the most part 56 00:02:31.430 --> 00:02:34.350 Has always just been a showcase for our API 57 00:02:34.350 --> 00:02:37.950 And proving how good our data is, how fast it is. 58 00:02:38.650 --> 00:02:40.370 And really being that place 59 00:02:40.370 --> 00:02:43.050 Where we can tell developers to go and check it out, 60 00:02:43.210 --> 00:02:44.890 Like we can prove that we are good. 61 00:02:45.850 --> 00:02:47.490 And now over the past few months 62 00:02:47.490 --> 00:02:49.310 Or like I really over the past year, 63 00:02:50.070 --> 00:02:54.170 We've been focusing on launching a new version of Defined, 64 00:02:54.550 --> 00:02:56.490 Something that we care a little bit more about 65 00:02:57.090 --> 00:02:59.910 That has the ability to do more things. 66 00:03:00.130 --> 00:03:01.150 You can trade on it. 67 00:03:01.290 --> 00:03:04.010 We have a brand new mobile app out as well. 68 00:03:04.170 --> 00:03:05.050 We have a Telegram bot. 69 00:03:05.230 --> 00:03:09.410 We have the ability for you to use it anywhere. 70 00:03:10.670 --> 00:03:13.830 And that's one of our main priorities right now 71 00:03:13.830 --> 00:03:16.510 Is we're doing really well on the Codex side of things, 72 00:03:16.510 --> 00:03:18.410 But we also wanna diversify our revenue, 73 00:03:18.970 --> 00:03:24.270 Figure out other places to kind of gain momentum 74 00:03:24.630 --> 00:03:26.770 And gain mindshare as well. 75 00:03:27.050 --> 00:03:29.730 Cause if Defined does well, then Codex does well as well. 76 00:03:30.450 --> 00:03:34.070 So we have a nice big banner advertising Codex 77 00:03:34.070 --> 00:03:35.710 For every new user to Defined. 78 00:03:36.090 --> 00:03:40.510 So if we're able to draw users in the majority of people 79 00:03:40.510 --> 00:03:42.330 Or like some people at least are gonna be devs 80 00:03:42.330 --> 00:03:44.730 Or working on other projects in this space 81 00:03:44.730 --> 00:03:48.210 And see that they're like, oh, this data is really good. 82 00:03:48.630 --> 00:03:51.190 I can get it from the provider who powers all this. 83 00:03:51.510 --> 00:03:53.990 So it's really a good flywheel for us. 84 00:03:54.510 --> 00:03:57.470 I think you guys are definitely winning in the sphere 85 00:03:57.470 --> 00:04:00.270 Of like Codex providing data for charts 86 00:04:00.270 --> 00:04:02.170 And all like data visualization. 87 00:04:02.750 --> 00:04:06.550 In terms of like the current landscape of businesses 88 00:04:06.550 --> 00:04:11.490 For screeners or trench tools or trading terminals, 89 00:04:11.810 --> 00:04:13.150 Can you give me a little bit of a lay ground 90 00:04:13.150 --> 00:04:14.790 Of like what that looks like first 91 00:04:14.790 --> 00:04:17.970 And then we can go into how Defined is standing out? 92 00:04:19.030 --> 00:04:21.810 Yeah, I think kind of the default 93 00:04:21.810 --> 00:04:23.830 That everybody uses right now is DexScreener. 94 00:04:24.830 --> 00:04:28.610 And to be honest, like I'm jealous of their business model 95 00:04:28.610 --> 00:04:30.570 And like, and the amount of users that they have 96 00:04:30.570 --> 00:04:32.050 And everything like that, like, 97 00:04:32.190 --> 00:04:33.590 And I've met their founders as well. 98 00:04:33.730 --> 00:04:34.750 They're awesome people. 99 00:04:34.910 --> 00:04:36.870 So I have nothing bad to say about DexScreener, 100 00:04:36.950 --> 00:04:42.210 But I think there's also a lot of positives 101 00:04:42.210 --> 00:04:43.730 To using Defined. 102 00:04:44.650 --> 00:04:46.270 Like we are more research driven. 103 00:04:46.870 --> 00:04:51.050 You can do a lot more kind of analysis around coins. 104 00:04:51.310 --> 00:04:53.990 We do a lot around figuring out what scams are, 105 00:04:54.070 --> 00:04:56.210 Our scams in general, like, 106 00:04:56.330 --> 00:04:59.390 And our trending is the best trending in the industry. 107 00:05:00.250 --> 00:05:02.130 Like it's almost instant. 108 00:05:02.370 --> 00:05:04.870 So if a new token comes out and it's really popular, 109 00:05:04.870 --> 00:05:07.230 It gets up to number one trending within minutes. 110 00:05:07.950 --> 00:05:09.650 Whereas like you're not gonna find it 111 00:05:09.650 --> 00:05:12.210 On any other screener for hours 112 00:05:12.210 --> 00:05:14.910 Because it's gonna take a long time for that to take up. 113 00:05:15.630 --> 00:05:17.310 So I think with Defined, 114 00:05:18.810 --> 00:05:20.890 Especially over the like the last few years 115 00:05:20.890 --> 00:05:22.910 And like the last couple months 116 00:05:22.910 --> 00:05:24.550 We've really been wrapping up users, 117 00:05:25.270 --> 00:05:27.450 The people who use Defined are the best traders. 118 00:05:28.250 --> 00:05:30.970 They're the ones that are making the most money. 119 00:05:31.330 --> 00:05:33.210 They're the ones that do it full time. 120 00:05:34.250 --> 00:05:39.510 And I think that's kind of like where we're able to grow 121 00:05:40.050 --> 00:05:42.870 From the people who are really serious about it 122 00:05:42.870 --> 00:05:43.930 And wanna do a lot of research 123 00:05:43.930 --> 00:05:45.510 And wanna have a lot of tooling. 124 00:05:45.790 --> 00:05:46.850 Because I think right now, 125 00:05:47.130 --> 00:05:50.070 If you know how to use Defined to its full capabilities, 126 00:05:50.670 --> 00:05:54.110 You're going to have such a huge edge on everybody else 127 00:05:54.110 --> 00:05:56.930 Because we've spent the last five years perfecting the data 128 00:05:58.030 --> 00:05:59.830 And we have a lot of it. 129 00:06:00.630 --> 00:06:02.410 I definitely have experienced 130 00:06:02.410 --> 00:06:04.490 Like putting in multiple terminals at once 131 00:06:04.490 --> 00:06:07.950 And seeing your guys' charts move faster than everyone else. 132 00:06:07.950 --> 00:06:11.510 So I think it's clear that if you have the fastest data, 133 00:06:11.930 --> 00:06:14.630 You will get the best opportunities to find runners 134 00:06:14.630 --> 00:06:17.050 Or trenching on Defined. 135 00:06:17.290 --> 00:06:18.030 Outside of that, 136 00:06:18.210 --> 00:06:21.630 I've noticed that you guys have gone into prediction markets 137 00:06:21.630 --> 00:06:23.590 As well as like features a little bit as well 138 00:06:23.590 --> 00:06:25.030 With this new modular terminal. 139 00:06:25.410 --> 00:06:27.310 Do you wanna speak a little bit more about like 140 00:06:27.310 --> 00:06:30.510 The future ideal tool that you have for Defined? 141 00:06:31.050 --> 00:06:34.110 Yeah, I think with Defined is like pretty much anything 142 00:06:34.110 --> 00:06:35.410 That you can do on-chain, 143 00:06:35.410 --> 00:06:37.610 You will eventually be able to do on Defined. 144 00:06:37.610 --> 00:06:39.910 So you have one centralized wallet 145 00:06:39.910 --> 00:06:42.230 That is kind of just like powered by Turnkey 146 00:06:42.230 --> 00:06:45.990 And you can bridge across chains with like Relay 147 00:06:45.990 --> 00:06:48.210 And like everything else that pretty much 148 00:06:48.210 --> 00:06:51.430 Every other app is using right now for making things simple 149 00:06:51.430 --> 00:06:53.970 But being able to do things like 150 00:06:53.970 --> 00:06:55.730 Get money into your purpose wallet, 151 00:06:55.930 --> 00:06:59.010 Get money into Polymarket and do prediction markets. 152 00:06:59.970 --> 00:07:02.950 Maybe in the future we'll do yields and lending 153 00:07:02.950 --> 00:07:04.170 And things like that. 154 00:07:04.490 --> 00:07:05.970 So being able to have one place 155 00:07:05.970 --> 00:07:10.370 Where you have your kind of day-to-day de-gen money 156 00:07:10.370 --> 00:07:13.090 Or investing money or whatever you want it to be 157 00:07:13.090 --> 00:07:15.610 Like have it accessible from anywhere in the world. 158 00:07:15.830 --> 00:07:18.150 So you just have like the Defined mobile app 159 00:07:18.150 --> 00:07:19.490 And you could just do whatever you want 160 00:07:19.490 --> 00:07:21.370 Based off of like what's happening in your life, 161 00:07:21.390 --> 00:07:23.510 What's happening in the world, things like that. 162 00:07:23.670 --> 00:07:25.850 So I think there's like a lot of opportunity there 163 00:07:25.850 --> 00:07:29.330 For us to keep building on top of what we already have 164 00:07:29.330 --> 00:07:34.050 And then everything that we put into Defined by default 165 00:07:34.050 --> 00:07:35.070 Also has to go into Codex. 166 00:07:35.070 --> 00:07:39.590 So our Codex's customers are also benefiting from that 167 00:07:39.590 --> 00:07:40.970 And they're able to use that data 168 00:07:40.970 --> 00:07:44.210 And we're able to get more like analytics 169 00:07:44.210 --> 00:07:47.970 About what people want and how people are using it 170 00:07:47.970 --> 00:07:49.310 From the Defined side of things 171 00:07:49.310 --> 00:07:51.510 Which also benefits like all of our customers. 172 00:07:52.830 --> 00:07:55.230 And like of course there's always gonna be a lot of overlap 173 00:07:56.010 --> 00:07:58.730 Between us and our customers as well. 174 00:07:59.130 --> 00:08:03.890 So like we do have, we try not to compete directly 175 00:08:04.350 --> 00:08:07.590 But to be honest like it's crypto. 176 00:08:08.170 --> 00:08:10.470 The main use case is trading shitcoins. 177 00:08:11.390 --> 00:08:12.070 The token is the product. 178 00:08:12.310 --> 00:08:13.210 Yeah, the token is the product. 179 00:08:13.470 --> 00:08:19.090 So everybody has some sort of way to trade coins 180 00:08:19.090 --> 00:08:21.730 And like that's pretty much the main way 181 00:08:21.730 --> 00:08:24.470 That we like main thing that we power 182 00:08:24.890 --> 00:08:26.110 On the Codex side of things. 183 00:08:26.410 --> 00:08:28.790 Like a lot of our customers are trading terminals. 184 00:08:29.250 --> 00:08:30.870 They're information bots. 185 00:08:30.870 --> 00:08:33.910 They're the things that where you're checking prices, 186 00:08:34.150 --> 00:08:36.570 You're trading, you're doing the thing 187 00:08:36.570 --> 00:08:37.650 That everybody else is doing. 188 00:08:37.950 --> 00:08:38.150 Right. 189 00:08:38.530 --> 00:08:40.810 It makes a lot of sense that since you guys are seeing 190 00:08:40.810 --> 00:08:42.690 How the data is being used, 191 00:08:42.910 --> 00:08:44.670 You can kind of reformat that 192 00:08:44.670 --> 00:08:46.590 Into your ideal trading terminal, right? 193 00:08:46.890 --> 00:08:49.250 So I think if you're trading perps, 194 00:08:50.250 --> 00:08:52.130 Prediction markets and trenching, 195 00:08:52.330 --> 00:08:53.650 Defined is one of the best places 196 00:08:53.650 --> 00:08:55.010 Or like one of the few terminals 197 00:08:55.010 --> 00:08:56.370 Where you can do that all at once. 198 00:08:57.570 --> 00:08:58.970 Maybe talk a little bit about 199 00:08:58.970 --> 00:09:00.830 What are you surprised about 200 00:09:00.830 --> 00:09:04.170 In terms of like that no other terminal 201 00:09:04.170 --> 00:09:05.830 Or screener has not done yet 202 00:09:05.830 --> 00:09:07.830 And you want to implement in Defined 203 00:09:07.830 --> 00:09:09.110 Or want Defined to become. 204 00:09:10.010 --> 00:09:13.170 I think the biggest thing is that discovery 205 00:09:13.710 --> 00:09:15.990 On other terminals is really difficult. 206 00:09:16.290 --> 00:09:18.430 And that's something that we've prioritized. 207 00:09:18.850 --> 00:09:21.310 Like if you've ever used Defined 208 00:09:21.310 --> 00:09:25.090 And really dug deep into how you can filter tokens, 209 00:09:25.090 --> 00:09:26.830 You'll know exactly what I'm talking about. 210 00:09:26.830 --> 00:09:31.790 It's crazy how many things that you can filter by 211 00:09:31.790 --> 00:09:35.490 And try to find a token that's going to 212 00:09:35.820 --> 00:09:38.870 Like be the next big thing is a lot easier on Defined 213 00:09:38.870 --> 00:09:40.950 Than it is on any other platform 214 00:09:40.950 --> 00:09:44.750 Because there's a lot of kind of garbage trending 215 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:49.550 That really doesn't really exist outside of our dataset 216 00:09:50.500 --> 00:09:52.410 Because we've put so much work into that. 217 00:09:52.890 --> 00:09:55.350 And our trending can be found across like apps 218 00:09:55.350 --> 00:09:58.270 All over the internet like through Base app 219 00:09:58.270 --> 00:10:01.030 And like I guess Coinbase Wallet and things like that as well. 220 00:10:01.230 --> 00:10:03.970 So it's like we need to make sure 221 00:10:03.970 --> 00:10:05.690 That that's as good as possible 222 00:10:05.690 --> 00:10:09.510 And there's as little scams as possible in there 223 00:10:09.510 --> 00:10:11.790 Which is an extremely difficult problem 224 00:10:12.410 --> 00:10:15.230 To tackle when 99.9% of tokens 225 00:10:15.230 --> 00:10:17.210 That are launched on a daily basis are scams. 226 00:10:18.850 --> 00:10:23.410 Right now we just crossed like 107 million tokens indexed 227 00:10:23.410 --> 00:10:28.210 And I would think that maybe 100,000 of those 228 00:10:28.210 --> 00:10:29.370 Are like real projects. 229 00:10:29.910 --> 00:10:31.710 Do you wanna talk a little bit more 230 00:10:31.710 --> 00:10:34.150 About how trending is getting filtered right now 231 00:10:34.150 --> 00:10:36.390 And why you think that gives the best edge to traders? 232 00:10:37.670 --> 00:10:40.830 Yeah, so we use a massive amount of different things 233 00:10:40.830 --> 00:10:42.710 And we're building on top of it every day 234 00:10:43.270 --> 00:10:45.830 But for the most part over the past few years 235 00:10:45.830 --> 00:10:48.870 It's really been a combination of unique wallets, 236 00:10:49.390 --> 00:10:51.150 Volume of course, liquidity of course 237 00:10:51.150 --> 00:10:54.850 And then kind of we started adding 238 00:10:54.850 --> 00:10:57.550 Like what the wallets look like. 239 00:10:58.090 --> 00:11:01.970 So if a wallet had traded a lot of scams before 240 00:11:01.970 --> 00:11:03.970 And then all of a sudden is trading this token 241 00:11:03.970 --> 00:11:05.910 It would penalize that token. 242 00:11:06.870 --> 00:11:09.290 But if there was a lot of like big winners 243 00:11:09.290 --> 00:11:13.070 Who trade a ton of different tokens 244 00:11:13.070 --> 00:11:14.370 That are legitimate tokens 245 00:11:14.370 --> 00:11:16.250 Then it's more likely that that token 246 00:11:16.250 --> 00:11:18.230 Is going to be a legitimate token as well 247 00:11:18.230 --> 00:11:20.850 Or as legitimate as you can get. 248 00:11:22.650 --> 00:11:25.290 But so we just keep on adding on top of that 249 00:11:25.290 --> 00:11:27.150 As we grow out our data 250 00:11:27.150 --> 00:11:32.110 And kind of make sure that we are trying to 251 00:11:32.670 --> 00:11:33.770 Stay ahead of the scammers 252 00:11:33.770 --> 00:11:36.410 Because they always come up with something new 253 00:11:36.410 --> 00:11:39.350 And we have to kind of like battle that as well. 254 00:11:39.550 --> 00:11:41.370 So we see a new scam trending, 255 00:11:41.390 --> 00:11:43.050 We have to figure out what they're doing, 256 00:11:43.370 --> 00:11:45.870 We remove that method of scamming 257 00:11:45.870 --> 00:11:47.230 From our trending algorithms 258 00:11:47.230 --> 00:11:50.010 And then they do something new as well the next day 259 00:11:50.010 --> 00:11:52.130 And we just, it's an endless battle. 260 00:11:52.530 --> 00:11:52.730 Right. 261 00:11:52.990 --> 00:11:54.650 I mean, it makes sense that there really 262 00:11:54.650 --> 00:11:56.910 Isn't a secret formula to like trenching 263 00:11:56.910 --> 00:11:59.190 But there is a way of protecting users 264 00:11:59.190 --> 00:12:00.830 As well as yourself from not buying 265 00:12:00.830 --> 00:12:02.290 Honeypots or scams, right? 266 00:12:02.710 --> 00:12:02.910 Yeah. 267 00:12:02.970 --> 00:12:04.810 Do you have any stories of traders 268 00:12:04.810 --> 00:12:07.730 Utilizing trending or like tokens 269 00:12:07.730 --> 00:12:09.890 That have really done well through your platform 270 00:12:09.890 --> 00:12:11.070 Or traders that have done well? 271 00:12:11.930 --> 00:12:14.230 Yeah, we have endless amounts of people 272 00:12:14.230 --> 00:12:15.430 That have reached out to us 273 00:12:15.430 --> 00:12:16.830 And said they wouldn't have been able 274 00:12:16.830 --> 00:12:19.430 To find a token if it wasn't for us. 275 00:12:19.670 --> 00:12:22.650 I think one of the people I remember 276 00:12:22.650 --> 00:12:24.490 Like back a couple years ago, 277 00:12:24.630 --> 00:12:26.830 There was like the token called Peanut or something 278 00:12:27.590 --> 00:12:30.410 And he said that he found it at like 20K market cap 279 00:12:30.410 --> 00:12:32.150 And it ran to like 100 mil or plus 280 00:12:34.090 --> 00:12:36.830 And he would not have been able to find that 281 00:12:36.830 --> 00:12:40.090 If it wasn't for Defined and the filters that he had set. 282 00:12:41.090 --> 00:12:42.970 So like he was a huge fan 283 00:12:42.970 --> 00:12:44.770 And he's a huge proponent of us now. 284 00:12:44.770 --> 00:12:47.710 So I think it's like if you use Defined, 285 00:12:47.930 --> 00:12:49.170 You start to understand it 286 00:12:49.170 --> 00:12:51.810 Because if you put in the effort 287 00:12:51.810 --> 00:12:53.690 To learn how everything works, 288 00:12:53.830 --> 00:12:55.830 You're gonna be able to build a system 289 00:12:55.830 --> 00:12:57.590 Around the way that you trade 290 00:12:57.590 --> 00:12:59.710 That is going to be extremely powerful. 291 00:12:59.970 --> 00:13:01.290 Mike, can you give a little introduction 292 00:13:01.290 --> 00:13:02.990 About yourself and how you got into crypto? 293 00:13:03.990 --> 00:13:04.450 Yeah, for sure. 294 00:13:05.190 --> 00:13:07.470 I used to be a professional poker player 295 00:13:08.190 --> 00:13:11.050 Back in like 2009, 2010 296 00:13:11.050 --> 00:13:15.070 And when Black Friday I think it was called 297 00:13:15.070 --> 00:13:17.510 Happened in the States where they really shut down 298 00:13:17.510 --> 00:13:20.510 All the ways to get money into poker back then, 299 00:13:21.090 --> 00:13:23.010 There was a lot of people trying to figure out 300 00:13:23.010 --> 00:13:24.990 Like how to continue playing 301 00:13:24.990 --> 00:13:26.930 And that's when people started finding Bitcoin 302 00:13:26.930 --> 00:13:27.770 Like pretty early. 303 00:13:28.350 --> 00:13:32.550 So I ended up buying Bitcoin for the first time in 2011 304 00:13:32.550 --> 00:13:34.810 For I think it was around $30 at the time 305 00:13:35.590 --> 00:13:40.430 And of course sold it for like $60 a piece of nice to end 306 00:13:40.430 --> 00:13:42.970 And nice to X, thought I was a genius 307 00:13:43.710 --> 00:13:45.630 And then kind of forgot about it for a few years 308 00:13:45.630 --> 00:13:49.150 And then in 2013, I bought 12 video cards 309 00:13:49.630 --> 00:13:52.210 And then started mining Dogecoin, Litecoin 310 00:13:53.010 --> 00:13:55.510 And then was one of the first people 311 00:13:55.510 --> 00:13:57.790 To put their like graphics, 312 00:13:58.210 --> 00:14:00.390 Like their compute power into like the pools 313 00:14:00.390 --> 00:14:01.950 Like NiceHash I think it was called 314 00:14:02.510 --> 00:14:04.450 Where you were able to rent out your compute 315 00:14:04.450 --> 00:14:06.150 To other people who were trying 316 00:14:06.150 --> 00:14:07.890 To mine shitcoins as well. 317 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:12.190 So that was a lot of fun and I did pretty well on that 318 00:14:12.190 --> 00:14:15.770 And but during that time, I was just like building startups 319 00:14:16.350 --> 00:14:19.730 And in 2013, I actually joined a company 320 00:14:20.390 --> 00:14:22.350 At my first like real job 321 00:14:23.830 --> 00:14:26.210 And that's where I ended up meeting everybody 322 00:14:26.210 --> 00:14:28.670 Who ended up being a co-founder of Defined and Codex. 323 00:14:28.970 --> 00:14:29.170 Wow. 324 00:14:29.250 --> 00:14:31.010 So we worked together at a company 325 00:14:32.230 --> 00:14:34.230 And we became quick friends 326 00:14:34.230 --> 00:14:37.090 And like worked together for a couple of years after that, 327 00:14:37.090 --> 00:14:39.970 I ended up leaving, started something new 328 00:14:39.970 --> 00:14:44.570 And in 2019, the five of us who are founders 329 00:14:44.570 --> 00:14:47.350 Of Defined and Codex, we built a consultancy 330 00:14:48.250 --> 00:14:50.990 Where we would just build software products 331 00:14:50.990 --> 00:14:52.210 From idea through launch. 332 00:14:52.910 --> 00:14:54.890 So we built something called Waking Up 333 00:14:54.890 --> 00:14:58.430 Which is a meditation app built by Sam Harris 334 00:14:58.430 --> 00:15:01.350 Who's like a famous philosopher and podcaster 335 00:15:02.010 --> 00:15:04.050 And then we also built something called Supercast 336 00:15:04.050 --> 00:15:05.610 Which is like a podcast platform 337 00:15:05.610 --> 00:15:08.590 For monetizing your subscribers 338 00:15:09.230 --> 00:15:11.190 And we were just continuing to do that. 339 00:15:12.350 --> 00:15:15.650 Then in August 2020, I deposited another $1,000 340 00:15:15.650 --> 00:15:17.970 Into crypto and quickly found Uniswap 341 00:15:17.970 --> 00:15:20.650 And realized that if I just was the first person 342 00:15:20.650 --> 00:15:23.010 In the world to buy and sell every single token 343 00:15:23.010 --> 00:15:24.970 That I would make a lot of money 344 00:15:25.650 --> 00:15:27.590 And it didn't really matter if it was a scam or not 345 00:15:27.590 --> 00:15:29.570 Because I would just buy and sell 346 00:15:29.570 --> 00:15:32.810 Before the rug was pulled and like the liquidity was gone. 347 00:15:32.810 --> 00:15:36.030 So I ended up doing really well doing that 348 00:15:36.030 --> 00:15:38.730 And I ended up showing it to my co-founders 349 00:15:38.730 --> 00:15:40.230 Of like the consultancy at the time 350 00:15:40.770 --> 00:15:43.090 And did well enough where we were able to fire 351 00:15:43.090 --> 00:15:45.030 All of our clients from the consultancy 352 00:15:45.030 --> 00:15:47.810 And started working on what ended up becoming Defined. 353 00:15:48.830 --> 00:15:52.170 It was originally just like trading tools for me 354 00:15:52.170 --> 00:15:54.630 To do better at sniping tokens 355 00:15:54.630 --> 00:15:58.230 But then we realized that there wasn't 356 00:15:58.230 --> 00:15:59.530 Any good data sources. 357 00:15:59.530 --> 00:16:02.270 So we built our own data source in-house 358 00:16:02.270 --> 00:16:04.650 And then we realized that that could be a product 359 00:16:05.290 --> 00:16:07.130 And we built a front end for it 360 00:16:07.130 --> 00:16:10.170 And ended up raising two and a half million 361 00:16:10.750 --> 00:16:13.990 On that idea to build out Defined 362 00:16:13.990 --> 00:16:16.970 As kind of like the front page of DeFi at the time. 363 00:16:17.350 --> 00:16:19.370 So that's kind of where everything started 364 00:16:19.370 --> 00:16:22.650 And since then we've, 365 00:16:22.650 --> 00:16:25.610 That was five and a half years ago now 366 00:16:25.610 --> 00:16:28.050 And since then we've grown to 20 people now 367 00:16:28.990 --> 00:16:31.530 And most of us are all based in the same city. 368 00:16:31.930 --> 00:16:34.510 We went full nepotism with our hiring practices 369 00:16:34.510 --> 00:16:36.150 And hired all of our friends. 370 00:16:37.210 --> 00:16:40.570 I think of the 13 or 14 of us 371 00:16:40.570 --> 00:16:42.130 Have been friends for 10 plus years 372 00:16:42.810 --> 00:16:46.350 And it's a great environment, a lot of fun. 373 00:16:46.590 --> 00:16:48.330 It's awesome working with your friends every day, 374 00:16:48.570 --> 00:16:49.530 Especially when they're all smart. 375 00:16:50.110 --> 00:16:51.770 I do wanna dig into that a little bit 376 00:16:51.770 --> 00:16:54.050 Because you guys were doing meditation apps 377 00:16:54.050 --> 00:16:56.070 And non-crypto businesses. 378 00:16:56.590 --> 00:16:58.970 I know that you got into crypto early DeFi 379 00:16:58.970 --> 00:17:02.350 But there's been so many ups and downs since then 380 00:17:02.350 --> 00:17:03.950 And there's five co-founders. 381 00:17:04.170 --> 00:17:07.110 How do you guys kind of go through the trenches 382 00:17:07.110 --> 00:17:09.210 Or all these lows of crypto together 383 00:17:09.210 --> 00:17:11.970 And kind of like stay committed to this industry 384 00:17:11.970 --> 00:17:14.030 And two to one another as well? 385 00:17:14.870 --> 00:17:16.630 I think we work really well together. 386 00:17:16.630 --> 00:17:20.010 We've never had an argument like in this entire time, 387 00:17:20.010 --> 00:17:22.730 Even when we had nine days runway left, 388 00:17:22.730 --> 00:17:24.610 We weren't fighting about things. 389 00:17:24.610 --> 00:17:26.990 We were just hoping for the best 390 00:17:26.990 --> 00:17:29.670 And figuring out ways to get to the next day. 391 00:17:31.030 --> 00:17:32.050 And the five of us, 392 00:17:32.210 --> 00:17:34.710 Which is a massive amount of co-founders for a company. 393 00:17:34.930 --> 00:17:36.990 You really shortened how five co-founders in a company. 394 00:17:40.050 --> 00:17:41.770 We stood each other really well. 395 00:17:42.510 --> 00:17:46.050 I'm the business guy, but I'm also pretty technical 396 00:17:46.050 --> 00:17:48.510 So I can keep our devs out of calls 397 00:17:49.130 --> 00:17:50.510 With the engineering teams. 398 00:17:50.990 --> 00:17:53.150 And then we kind of step all the way down 399 00:17:53.150 --> 00:17:57.670 From like really front end oriented down to like DevOps. 400 00:17:58.250 --> 00:18:00.670 And everybody has like a minimal amount of overlap 401 00:18:01.190 --> 00:18:03.510