From Investment Banking to Mercuryo: Arthur on the Plumbing Behind Crypto Payments

0:00Kinsa Durst Amazing. Welcome to Panoramic Content Suite, Singapore edition, Alongside Token2049. We have first day of F1 starting tonight, But before that, Arthur, chief business officer at Mercuryo took the Valuable time out of his day to join us today. So thank you for stopping by.

0:17Arthur Firstov Thanks for having me.

0:18Kinsa Durst Amazing. To kick things off, I think I just wanted to kind of let the audience know who you are. Don't mind sharing a bit about yourself, how you ended up at Mercuryo today.

0:27Arthur Firstov Sure. I used to work in TradFi before crypto and, Yeah, just, spend like a 12 months investment banking firm that didn't really Like it. And then I met like a Mercuryo founders and just joined right away. So the simple idea was like just to build Stripe for crypto like seven years Ago in 2019. So it's pretty like a while back. And, yeah, I mean, Like we started like a pretty early, I guess, Like in the stablecoins and the crypto payments and the infrastructure for Enterprises, but now like it's just, I guess we can on the mainstream.

1:00Kinsa Durst Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like a little too much. How much conversations going around about stablecoins payments, But it is like an obvious use case for blockchain crypto, Global payments infrastructure. I think initially I've been around crypto for A few years now, but initially Ethereum was too slow. Gas fees are too high, But technology is finally there. Now it's about just adoption, regulatory, Regulatory adoption as well, across different jurisdictions, but yeah, Super exciting. And, If you can explain a little bit more about what Mercuryo specifically is, Is doing, and yeah, What you guys are looking to achieve with your product.

1:43Arthur Firstov Yeah. I think like simple way to explain what Mercuryo is, We're like a software company with a banking like crypto and all sorts of Licenses to move money around the different countries. And, different blockchains banks. So we started with a simple protocol on and off ramp, which was like not a big, Like actually, narrative back then in 2019, 2020, Lots of people didn't even have this sermon. They didn't know what's like on And off ramp. I guess like, we had like a big window, like a three, Three years at least where we just captured like a market share with lots Of like centralized exchanges wallets, like the centralized exchanges during DeFi summer. I think that was a peak like for us, like an all time high. We developed like lots of new other products frameworks, How to work with crypto native enterprises, especially with the DeFi Protocols, like, but you know, like guys like Uniswap and stuff like That 1inch and, self custodial wallets.

2:36Arthur Firstov They never had like a payments inside the app. So like, you know, Lots of neobanks, fintechs, like already work like around, I don't know, Different like countries like in Europe and us. So people were using like them for daily life, but like crypto crypto Wallets, what I think it was like, kind of just a very degen use cases Where like people just using DeFi and trying to access different Protocols like yield and farm different protocols. So I think like for Us, yeah, like starting with the on and off ramp with a crypto native Ecosystem and you know, like build infrastructure for them was like the First step. And, like in the recent years, like I think like last Two or three years we were partnering with lots of enterprises, Traditional, you know, payment companies like Visa, Mastercard, Revolut and guys like that trying to build the new kind of like self Custodial payment infrastructure on top of what they already have with The banks, with the fintechs. And, you know, like some of them Are launching completely new, like a web3 subsidiaries, which is Like different products. They still have the traditional payments, Traditional business in parallel, like traditional banking, but they're Trying to access like, I know, cross border, like, cheap Sent, you know, fast transfers the same day. And, I think Blockchain is stablecoins is the way to see it.

3:50Kinsa Durst Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like the core unlock that you guys are Initially working on was enabling crypto holders, crypto Users to pay for real world goods, before the two worlds, You know, I think before there's a lot more friction to move Assets from on chain, off chain, vice versa. So you guys Enabled payments with crypto. And now it sounds like you guys are Working on the other side of things where, you're working With infrastructure partners of traditional finance payments Platforms and, making crypto, the base integration into Their infrastructure so that, you know, you don't need to On-ramp off-ramp. It's just part of the, the base Infrastructure system, on a high level as, as Outsider. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's not like

4:37Arthur Firstov The sexiest like, business to do in terms of like the Awareness. Not many people, like I heard about the, you Know, like a company or like, heard about the, I guess Like outside of the crypto world, right? So like not many People, from the user consumer perspective, like they Know like what they use because like lots of the Products are just pure API's and it's embedded directly into Your experience with your, I dunno, like, your trust Wallet or Phantom wallet when you're buying crypto with Apple Pay, you don't really see who's like providing this Product. So yeah, I guess like as all of the Infrastructure, it should be like hidden leave somewhere Like, you know, like behind the scenes and, that's The whole idea. So like, I think the traditional Finance works the same way. Like there's lots of Corresponding banks. Like when you send transfer from Singapore to us, for example, it goes like to like, Who may be like three, like, different banks, like Locally, domestically, like globally. And you have a Swift, SWIFT system. Yeah. Like the same when you Send transactions from American banks, some of them Like just routed through like JP Morgan, some of Them routed from other corresponding banks, but you Don't really know like who's under underwriting Transaction for you. I guess like the same you Can see right now, like on the blockchain, when you Just didn't swap on like a defy protocol, you Probably, yeah, you can just trace the whole thing Down, but like simple, like, I guess like average Users, they don't really kind of like track these Things. They don't really want to know it. They Just want to have like in 10, I don't know, like go From asset A to asset B. So like, yeah, I mean, for Us is like more about like building use cases, Like talking to like different people, Enterprises like, we, we see a lot of interest Right now in like a tokenized deposits. So we Started with a simple like bank to crypto Transition. And the use cases were like around Like more speculative, like things like Investments, like investing in like a crypto assets.

6:29Arthur Firstov But for, for now, I think like, it's more About like moving the money and it's like mostly Payments, like a FinTech use cases. Also Interesting, like love our partners, like wallets And exchanges, they were like primarily focusing On trading themselves. So they were like, in Trading, like, I don't offer another, you know, Like products like defy, like, primitives, Like yield, you know, like, or like, Liquidity provision and like, I don't know, Just, swaps in general between like, Speak like volatile assets. So now, like you See, you know, like they're maturing into Like more like a neobank and FinTech Applications, like the launching crypto cards, The luncheon, like a bank account. So you can Basically do everything with, with your Crypto wallet. I wouldn't say it's mainstream, Though, to be honest, like, you like as a Crypto user, like you probably heard about Like Phantom, but like as a normal user, Like that never traded meme coins, for Example. Yeah, like, I don't think you Heard about the wallet or like you used it Before, or you will use it. And like, I think What's interesting happening, like, we all Thought, like, in our promise, like, as a Company, like, I think at some point, we had A mission, like, every, every single wallet Is like an entry to web3 world. And Like, that's, that's the world where we Want to be. That's the most perfect, Like, culmination of the financial System, like how it should be, how it Should look like from the user experience.

7:54Arthur Firstov But now we see, like, it took a While for them to adapt like a FinTech Products. And, it's all like due to Regulation, maybe like some other, you Know, like, compliance parts and, You know, infrastructure, FinTech Availability in some countries. But like, You also see like traditional Companies like PayPal, Western Union, Like, MoneyGram, they'll also like Launching crypto cards, you know, crypto Wallets, on-ramps.

8:21Kinsa Durst Are they, are they as well?

8:22Arthur Firstov Yeah. Yeah. Like, for example, like, Like it all starts with different pieces. Like, you know, like, Western Union, They launched the stablecoin card First with rain. And, the card is, Denominated like in the stable Coin USDPT that issued by, Anchorage Digital Bank, like they Licensed the US issuer. And, they Launched this first. And like, when you Have a wallets, when you have like a Crypto wallet and you have a crypto Card, but like the, all of the fonts, All of the user channels are still like In the traditional like banking system, You need to find a way how to move it Into this card, right? So how do you Top up this card? So like, and it's Card specifically denominated and USDPT on Solana. So it's not even Like a cross chain. It's like, Specific blockchain, specific stable Coins. And, you know, they might Have like a crypto users, but like, I think majority of their users are Just enormous. Like how do we bridge These guys? Like, how do we make Them use like a cross-border, Payments like with the stablecoins?

9:24Arthur Firstov Right. So they all need like This kind of like a FinTech stack. Like just everybody starts from Different angles. I think like, Crypto cards right now is mostly Like, you know, like a Trojan horse enabling like, All of the other things I can, you Know, like a crypto payment use Cases for financial institutions and The traditional like, enterprises.

9:42Kinsa Durst Yeah. Yeah. I would imagine your Marginal user, doesn't really Hold stablecoins or crypto, right? I think your marginal crypto, a Credit card user. So I'd Imagine, you know, we, we did have Like companies like Ethena Pay on Here out of their initial customer Base or crypto natives, but it Seems like, you know, Samsung just a couple of days ago, Just announced that they're Integrating Solana for the holding And sending us DC, natively Integrated into their phones. It seems like this is going to Be a start of just like, it's Going to be a baseline given that, Crypto support stablecoin Support will be integrated into Your everyday lives. And I guess It's just a matter of time before People just get used to it. Or Maybe it's just so seamless that You don't even notice, the Transactions, the remittances, Et cetera, or just happening on Happening automatically. You just See numbers on your phone, Right? I think that's the Ideal case instead of signing Transactions, smart contracts, Things like that. Yeah, yeah.

10:45Kinsa Durst So super excited. I'm hoping the Acceleration of this adoption is Going to happen sooner rather Than later, but we are set At the finally getting there and The ball is not going to stop

10:56Arthur Firstov Rolling. Yeah. You know, it's, It's funny that like I mentioned Something because I was just Thinking about the adoption. Like Everybody's talking about like Apple or like Google, they're Going to like just launch the Stablecoins. They want Stablecoins. You know, once The legislation passed, you Know, like they have like full Green lights, you like basically See whatever they want with Stablecoins. So the, it sounds And it feels right now, Like, because, you know, like There's definitely a regulation About stablecoins, like Everywhere, like in Europe, in US, like in Southeast Asia. It sounds like, the, there Wouldn't be like any difference Between like a USD, for example, And USDC from the compliance Perspective. So it's going to Be the same balance, the same, You know, like, policy for Users to onboard with the Bank or the, with the Financial application. And It's just not happening like Tomorrow, like maybe like next Year, but it's not the case Because like, there's lots of Pieces that need to be like Done before. And, it's all Around like also like Rebuilding or like building on Top of like a legacy, you know, Infrastructure. And, you Know, like there's lots of Plumbing. There's lots of Things around identity. There Was like identity companies That are doing everything on The blockchain. Like, I Think Solana, what Solana Did great with Samsung Wallet Is just, you know, like the Base layer. So like now like The, you know, the Samsung Wallet supports like a Blockchain and it's in Solana As fast, you know, like it's Great for payments. You Know, like users, I suspect They also will use a wallet. So They don't really, I don't Know who they use for the Wallet infrastructure, but There must be someone like Either Privy or Turnkey or Somebody else. So, there's Lots of plumbing that we don't Really see, but I think it's Great. Like, narrative is Great announcements. Like, you Know, now like you have Stablecoins inside like Samsung Wallet and, you Know, soon probably Apple Wallet as well. There's lots Of like rumors about it.

12:44Kinsa Durst We'll see which chain goes On that wall at first. I'm

12:46Arthur Firstov Curious. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if you're

12:49Kinsa Durst Hearing any specific rumors.

12:51Arthur Firstov Not really, not really.

12:54Kinsa Durst Okay. Okay. Next podcast.

12:55Arthur Firstov Next post. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

12:57Kinsa Durst Yeah. I think the obvious Use case is, is being pursued By some of the smartest People, startups in the Industry as well as Incumbents. But I do want to Touch on what's coming up Next, the future coming few Years. And part of the Conversation is obviously Artificial intelligence or Super intelligence, whatever You might want to call it. And, how your personal Agents can manage payments For you. Kind of Changing the, the dynamics Of payments in general and Our never our everyday Lives. Curious to hear about What you're seeing in that Front. Are you working With some companies or What do you predict the Feature of agentic Payments for AI will

13:39Arthur Firstov Bring? Yeah. This is Super interesting topic Because like, I think Somebody mentioned it Yesterday, like on a Panel, that basically We expected agents to use Crypto, like, and we built For them, like, like Crypto wallets, Programmable payment Infrastructure, Interoperable, like, Infrastructure for the Blockchains. And, you All see, like, they are Just using like normal Payment stack, right? Yeah. Like, just the normal Cards and all not good Crypto cards. And, Yeah, I think it was Kind of like just Interesting. Like everybody Was like kind of, not Expecting that. And they're Like, how do we, how do We like behind? And, Yeah, I think it's Interesting because like Agents, like in my Opinion, they should run On crypto. Like it's just A better, just Progressed, like better From the, it's Programmable. It's Automated. Lots of the Things like, they're Just abstracted from the User. The first

14:36Kinsa Durst Principles perspective.

14:37Arthur Firstov Exactly. Yeah. So, and That's the, that's the Whole goal. Why people Using agents like I used Instinct for like moving Out from my apartment While I was like another Country and it did well. And like, I think for, For me, like the Perspective of the next Year, it's like next, I Don't know, like say two Years, even like maybe Like next 12 months, it's Going to be like, you See right now they, they Got started because it Just was easier to add Like, you know, Stripe Link, for Example, as a maintain Infrastructure for, Use for Instinct. And They also built like some Policies like for, for Agents specifically. So Agents can use this Cards. So it's like a Joint, actually, joint Venture joint initiative With, payment Networks, like visa Mastercard. So they have Like agent, genetic Programs where they, you Know, allow user, allow Like basically agents to Issue with the cards for Themselves and, set Off specific limits. And, You know, like when You do the card, you Have like three days Step. So you need to Like confirm these with The cold. So agents can Capture the themselves.

15:42Arthur Firstov You know, they can Bypass all of this kind Of like, anti both Like, you know, Like, protections Usually set by the banks And you know, like bank Requires. So I think, They did really well on That front. And that was Just faster and easier Than to did the same Things with the Blockchain structure. But Eventually, like, it's All going to settle on The blockchain is all Going to be like more, Intelligent and like You will see like a Multi actions in one Transaction. So now Like one transaction just Pay like on the normal, Checkout page with The, you know, like your Amex card and like the Multi transactions can be Like using one, for Example, payment for I don't like booking like Lots of things like the Hotel. So it just Simplifies the flow. And, Also like the Question, how do, how do You monetize Instinct?

16:30Arthur Firstov You know, like there is Not like a subscription Is free. Like all of These agents are free. I Think the game is right Now. I just do get as Much users as possible. You know, test as much Like, you know, like Opportunities for them. And, Yeah, I think like The monetization should Be like through the Payments. Yeah. Yeah.

16:47Kinsa Durst Makes sense for agents to Monetize through Payments. I think With another guest I Was talking about, we Were talking about how Agents are going to Enable microtransactions Now because they're Willing to take a look At every single Transactions and it's Going to change. There's Going to be a paradigm Shift from monthly Subscriptions into more Micro transaction Based economy because of That, agents can Handle, you know, every Instead of paying Monthly to Netflix, every Time you watch something Agent can just quickly do The transaction for you. So that sort of paradigm Shift is like really Interesting to me as

17:23Arthur Firstov Well. I met a few people That are building Protocols for like a Streaming payments. Yeah. So the agent can get Access to your wallet, With some Permissions, obviously With some limits, but They can stream Subscriptions and stuff Like that, directly From the blockchain. And You don't have to Confirm every single You know, transaction That you're currently To, like, for example, Like with your man On my squalid. So super Cool. Yeah, I guess Like, micro Transactions is a big Trend, but also like, How do you really, How do you really see Like the agent, like, Obviously like There's lots of things On the eyesight, like On the databases, Like, lots of Other companies building Planning for them. But Like, I think financial Stack is like the most Powerful use case that Agent can give you Because it can run like Everything for the Company for yourself. And You see a lot of people Are right now, like Running like a one man Shops as well, you know, If you're selling like Some like AI creators, For example, you know, Like selling different Like, digital goods And services. So I think Like, agents will Be able to pay for Their goods and Services. You'll Need to have a Crypto there because It's just the only way To kind of like, make It like, 24 seven Like cross border.

18:34Arthur Firstov Some of the countries That still don't really Work with Stripe. You know, like Instinct, For example, right now Only accepts like the U.S. Issued cards for Their agentic payments. So If you have a like non U.S. Card, you cannot Really book the flight With Instinct. So like There's lots of things To be done. And I think Crypto just, you know, Like, just better, Infrastructure for Agents in general, for Those use cases and Those use cases are Like the ones that we Want to see, like just Simplify our lives in Some time, but also With the security with Like still have like Control over your Funds, you know, setting The limits and Basically, yeah, not Really exposing, you Know, like a sensitive Data, like a data about Your purchases as well To anybody else. Yeah. And like, I think Financial stack that, You know, people are Building like us or like Other companies is Definitely, it's Definitely like more Complicated for agents.

19:23Arthur Firstov But like, I think it's The, the most optimal Way for them to Monetize themselves, but Also to create more Use cases and bring More users to the

19:32Kinsa Durst Board. Yeah. Yeah. Super excited to see How it plays out. That's it. I want to Pivot a little bit into Asking about your Personal preferences in Terms of, do you like to Buy, you know, speaking Of payments, it Seemed like a super Fashionable guy travel a Lot of global citizen. We were just talking About being a Stringent. Yeah. Where do you mostly Use the payment stack? What do you do? Is it Mostly for travel, for Logistics? Is it For buying goods? Yeah. Just more of a Personal question. Yeah. Just for fun.

20:04Arthur Firstov Yeah. I think, Yeah, I think that Mostly like lifestyle, Like travel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The hotels, lights, Some services. Yeah. Yeah. Like I think It's just, right now, Like I live like very Hectic life as well as Yeah. I seem like Everybody in the space And industry. So like, I want to just simplify The process for like, My traveling for, You know, like getting Around the place, like Scheduling some Stuff in advance, but Also like, doing Payments last second, you Know, it's so important, I guess to, to be Like flexible, like a Flight, like yesterday, Last night, I saw you Booking the flight, like As well now. So it's Kind of like just, and It's tomorrow, right? So Like, it's, it's, it's, That's a lifestyle and You want to use the Payments. You want to Use like, not Necessarily payments, Like agents, like every Other tool that makes Your life easier, Whether it's neobank, Whether it's like a Crypto cards, whether It's like, I don't Know, something that Signifies your life in General. I think that's, That's, that Should be built, you Know, startups through This, through this Shop. And like, People, people think Like, there's Like a three, four, like A big companies in the World that's gonna like Kill every startup. And They're just, you know, Like simplify, the Lives for everybody.

21:15Arthur Firstov You know, like provide Like less hassle for Jobs and stuff like That. But I guess like, In my opinion, there's Always like better, Services. It's also Like very cultural, like In different countries, You need to use like a Different, like, you Know, neobanks, like, I don't know, different Like applications, Different like taxi or Like, you know, Like eats, like Uber is Like bullets, rapids, Like different services In general, like, and, They all like need Like local payments. I Don't know, like in, in Southeast Asia, we pay With QR codes in China pay, Like with WeChat Pay. So Like, I think it's Just, just a mix of Like apps and services. I think we're like super Lucky to live in the Era where we can Actually have access to All of this, despite Being like global and Like nomadic in a Sense. So, yeah, I Think it's just, what About you? Like, what do You like to use?

22:12Kinsa Durst Logistics and shopping. Yeah. Yeah. I really Value flexibility. I Just mentioned the flight Thing, but, I think I really hate it when My payments get blocked For some, whatever some Reason, or it's not, you Know, having to input All the card numbers. So I just look for the most Convenient frictionless Option possible. And I Think I mostly default to

22:35Arthur Firstov Like Apple Pay. Yeah.

22:37Kinsa Durst Just because of that, Which supports both Credit, crypto credit Cards and regular credit Cards. But I think Apple Pay is my favorite way To pay for travels, Shopping, et cetera.

22:48Arthur Firstov I would say it's a 5% On top of the price in Singapore. If you, if You pay with Apple Paying Singapore is like A 5% more. Really? Yeah. They charge you More here for that. They Don't want to pay to Apple. That's the thing.

23:00Kinsa Durst Right. Right. Yeah. They Do charge a lot of The frictionless. They

23:02Arthur Firstov Just pass through to the User. Yeah. Gotcha.

23:05Kinsa Durst That's, that's Pretty messed up. That's Not cheap. Yeah. So

23:09Arthur Firstov People, that's why people Use like a QR here. Yeah. So like, we, we Spoke like with lots of Like crypto company, the Consumer companies here, But this experience is Like, you know, Like a neobanks and, They're like, we Super interested in it. Like a QR is like, if You guys can allow like Our users to spend like Stablecoins from their Wallets, via QRs here in Singapore, that will Be awesome. Because like, If you use your cards Here and users can Only, I mean, you can Also have like a physical Card, but I think Everything's digital here. So I think like, if You had a tap to pay, it Just on top of like a Spending fee, like Everybody like has a Spending fee, like for The crypto, you, You know, like you'll Pay like a 5% which just Doesn't make sense. You Know, in this specific Country, like in this Specific city, like you Want to have something Different. Yeah.

23:55Kinsa Durst Right. Right. Yeah. QR code, I think [unclear] is like a Local stablecoin company That's been exploring QR code, the Integrated with Grab,

24:03Arthur Firstov Yeah, to build out the

24:04Kinsa Durst Way through wallet as Well. Yeah, I feel Like agent payment Ecosystem is a whole Not another game versus The US, which lags quite Far behind. So it's good To learn from daily life

24:16Arthur Firstov Here. Did you see Grab Also had like a use DC, I guess Circle like Integration, like a couple Of years ago or like a Year ago. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure how It goes, actually. Like I Haven't seen like any Other news after that.

24:27Kinsa Durst Okay. Yeah. Got too Much adoption. But, Right now, I think it's The time for that to

24:33Arthur Firstov Happen. So yeah, yeah,

24:35Kinsa Durst That's how it plays out. Cool. Well, if, you Know, our audience wants To learn more about Mercuryo or get in touch With you, can they Do that online or how Can they make that Happen? Oh, yeah, sure.

24:50Arthur Firstov Like, social like Medias, Twitter, LinkedIn, lots of People have 350 people In the company. So lots Of people like, on The website. Yeah, just I think the best way is Just to reach out on a Website and, add the

25:05Kinsa Durst Links below. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for joining Us. Great to have you.

25:09Arthur Firstov Thank you very much. And

25:10Kinsa Durst See you for the next Podcast. See you guys.